Crisis in the Ukraine

[Rusty Shackleford]

This won't help anything. I wouldn't be surprised if this was staged, but I wouldn't be surprised by the opposite either.
"prefilled votes for independence found in Slaviansk"

+ YouTube Video

Also, a song called "Yugo-Vostok" that is a bit of a 'partisan song' focusing on the miners in the east.

+ YouTube Video

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

A mine as in you dutch, not mine as in Q who is a active member, got it.
But anyways, it might shock you to hear that I actually quite agree with your analysis of (anti-)fascism (though probably les so in proposed praxis against it)
I do think for exactly that reason though that a group like arkans tigers where more fascist (as in behaving in the traditional role of fascists and needing to be physically/politically countered in the way one needs to counter fascism) than most self declared fascists.

The Tigers were a military unit, not a political movement, they were armed and trained by the state, and they had no street-level presence. So I can't see how any sort of anti-fascist strategy could beat the Tigers - or the ZNG, etc. etc. - back.

I don't know where you get the idea I'm a popular frontists or anything, I dont mind liberals or Stalinists beating or otherwise hindering fascists during anti-fascist actions but they are more coincidental temporary fellow travelers, as AFA here in the Netherlands we only mobilse fellow libertarian revolutionary organizations, we never work actively with organisations that are not and at least my group would never appeal to the state for repression of the extreme right, individuals of all progressive persuasions are obviously always welcome, we are not a cadre organisation we are a fluid direct action network with revolutionary basis principles.

What sort of "progressive persuasion" are you talking about? The thing is, I distinctly remember you talking about working with observers sent by social-democratic parties etc. Furthermore, you consistently praise liberals over Stalinists and have commented positively on election campaigns of bourgeois politicians.

My beef here is mostly with the people who play right into the hands who want to balkanize the Ukraine by overemphatising the fascist influence on one side and minimize (or even deny) the fascist presence on the other. There are fash on either side, both also in influental/prominent positions. But they are not determinial on either side either. Making this s fash - anti-fash or even a junta - oppresed workers conflict is counterproductive, its a blooming ethnic nationalist conflict fueled by competing bourgeois imperialist factions. Only the flat out refusal to participate in this false dichotomy by the proletariat can prevent civilwar.

So why do you continue to post articles by the AWU, whose members cooperate with the Interior Ministry, and who consistently blame everything on "the Russians", including the events in Odessa, consistently shielding the Kiev government from blame? You can't have it both ways. If you want to condemn both sides, then actually condemn both sides, don't post propaganda from one side.

And yes, I really don't think that that in conflict with my initial understanding why leftists would participate in the maidan uprising, not because I believe in European fairytales but because confloct with the state creates room for politicizing, now we have to conclude though that the possibilities to make this a progressive struggle have passed and this devolved into an purely inter reactionary brawl for now.

So if conflict with the state "creates room for politicising", why do you not advocate that leftists participate in the anti-Maidan movement? The point is that this sort of love affair with anything that moves, or appears to be moving, is what's driving the left into obscurity, irrelevance and tailism. I refer you to the quote in my sig.

[PhoenixAsh]

Working with Liberals or Stalinists/ML.

I am not sure I see the difference.

There is one reason I would work with either and that is on an anti-fascist platform. And that is indeed wholly opportunistic.

[Tim Cornelis]

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_0...-reports-8880/

About 400 elite commandos of a notorious US private security firm, Academi, are involved in a punitive operation mounted by Ukraine’s new government against federalization supporters in eastern Ukraine, the German Bild am Sonntag newspaper reported on Sunday./

[cyu]

Voting

http://shaltaibaltai.deviantart.com/...ndum-453416117

[PhoenixAsh]

Landslide victories for independence from Kiev in both regions.

In Donetks 89.7% voted for independence out of 74.8% turn out.

Lugansk had a turn out of 81% but hasn't released any numbers yet but it is rumoured to be in the 90% range.


Nobody will recognize the votes as legitimate. Maybe Russia. So now what.

[Black Cross]

"Sorry but your vote is not legitimate like our foreign backed coup."

It sucks though that kiev now has those pre-filled ballots to try and argue against the validity of this vote.

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[Black Cross]

http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_0...-reports-8880/

Hmm I wonder. That's a Russian, state owned radio station regurgitating news reported by a German conservative tabloid... Not that I doubt these goons are mercenaries, or something of that nature, but it seems like some conclusions are being jumped to.

[Rusty Shackleford]

What's the likelihood of some sort of transnistirian situation coming about?

[Black Cross]

Zero, assuming I understand what you mean by that word.

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[Rusty Shackleford]

Just a weird pseudostate like transnistria

[Nakidana]

Zero, assuming I understand what you mean by that word.

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Why?

I guess the fact that they could go through with the referendum shows what a failure the Kiev military campaign has turned out to be. What makes you think they'll be able to establish dominance by the 25th?

[SHORAS]

Fairly good Trot article from IMT here:

Kiev unable to crush the Donbas uprising - White terror in Ukraine

Two days from the May 11 referendum in Donetsk and Luhansk, the Kiev authorities, unable to crush the uprising in the Donbas, are stepping up the war hysteria, curtailing democratic rights and incorporating fascist paramilitaries into the state apparatus. Meanwhile there are signs of growing working class activity in the areas under the control of the rebels.

http://www.marxist.com/donbas-uprising-white-terror.htm

[Black Cross]

Why?

Cynicism has a lot to do with it. I don't think the EU, IMF or the USA is gonna just let eastern ukraine be autonomous.

I guess the fact that they could go through with the referendum shows what a failure the Kiev military campaign has turned out to be. What makes you think they'll be able to establish dominance by the 25th?

Who are you referring to establishing dominance? Kiev?



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[Sasha]

There will be a series of info nights in the Netherlands the coming days about the situation in Ukraine from people from the Ukrainian anarchist black cross. Dutch people can contact me for the dates and details.

[Rusty Shackleford]

So the video of pre filled ballots was fake for sure. They differed from the actual ballots.

[Nakidana]

Who are you referring to establishing dominance? Kiev?



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Yeah. The EU/US is acting through Kiev, if Kiev can't establish dominance in the area then there isn't really much they can do.

Kiev hasn't been able to prevent the referendum. Just today 6 Ukrainian soldiers were killed and a further 8 injured in an ambush. It seems to me they've lost the region.

[Black Cross]

Yeah. The EU/US is acting through Kiev, if Kiev can't establish dominance in the area then there isn't really much they can do.

Kiev hasn't been able to prevent the referendum. Just today 6 Ukrainian soldiers were killed and a further 8 injured in an ambush. It seems to me they've lost the region.

Why is it they have until the 25th in your opinion?

I imagine they could find the military strength and numbers - if not from within ukraine, from without - to take control of eastern ukraine. But I'll remain optimistic for now.

Regardless, I was merely saying that I don't think the east will become its own autonomous nation. If Russia doesn't absorb it, I feel like east ukraine won't be able to avoid being looted by the USA/EU/IMF. I'd also like to think I'm 100% wrong.

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[Nakidana]

Why is it they have until the 25th in your opinion?

Because that's when the election is. They would want elections in Eastern Ukraine too, to make a show of them being in control of a united Ukraine.

I imagine they could find the military strength and numbers - if not from within ukraine, from without - to take control of eastern ukraine. But I'll remain optimistic for now.

Surely they'd have found the strength by now? Mind you, this is the third time they attempt a military campaign.

Regardless, I was merely saying that I don't think the east will become its own autonomous nation. If Russia doesn't absorb it, I feel like east ukraine won't be able to avoid being looted by the USA/EU/IMF. I'd also like to think I'm 100% wrong.

Well all they need to do is establish closer ties with Russia. I don't think Russia needs to annex it, for it to resist Kiev.

Let's see, maybe I'm wrong.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Kiev unable to crush the Donbas uprising - White terror in Ukraine

Oooohh! Things must be really falling into place. I guess since the "White" terror has returned to Ukraine, bolshevik style hard core revolutionary vanguard-ism will soon prevail...

The lack of realist political creativity and original polemic of the left is really disheartening.