SPGB vs UKIP, 26 March 2014 - London

[The Idler]

'An Independent UK or a Socialist World?:

A debate between UKIP and the Socialist Party' (South London - 7.00pm)

Date:
Wednesday, 26 March 2014 - 7:00pm




Venue: The Socialist Party's premises, 52 Clapham High Street, London SW4 7UN

Directions: About four minutes walk from Clapham North tube on the Northern line and three minutes walk from Clapham High Street station on the Circular Overground line.

Debate between Elizabeth Jones (No.3 on the UKIP list standing for the London region in the Euroelections in May)
and
Bill Martin (representing The Socialist Party, Merton & Wandsworth, London Assembly candidate in 2012)


Free admission and refreshments
Audience participation

http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/e...h-london-700pm

[Remus Bleys]

I am certain this will convince many people that were once reactionary and for the ukip are now going to be revolutionary Thanks to this debate!
Keep up the good work comrade!

[The Feral Underclass]

Why the fuck are you sharing a platform with these people?

[Thirsty Crow]

I am certain this will convince many people that were once reactionary and for the ukip are now going to be revolutionary Thanks to this debate!
Keep up the good work comrade!

It's debatable just how many people will see the debate either in person or filmed/transcribed.

I don't think that it's reasonable to assume SPGB holds that such debates are aimed at transforming organizations such as UKIP though.

[Remus Bleys]

It's debatable just how many people will see the debate either in person or filmed/transcribed.

I don't think that it's reasonable to assume SPGB holds that such debates are aimed at transforming organizations such as UKIP though.

What then is the justification of this debate if not to win the hearts of people? Anyone who will listen won't be swayed as their hardcore enough to be "immune" to debating. Anyone who could change their mind probably won't be interested in the debate.

[radiocaroline]

I predict a riot..

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Why the fuck are you sharing a platform with these people?

^^This. This is a fucking abomination.

[RedAnarchist]

Whatever happened to "no platform"? Fuck UKIP and fuck their nationalistic bullshit.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

this does seem a bit confusing tbh, aside from the fact that i can't see very much point in bothering to debate with Ukippers since they're usually utterly entrenched in a very parochial worldview is there really any need whatsoever tyo share a platform with them given that they literally haven't been out of the media for more than about twelve seconds in the last two years - among other things?

[Sea]

Why the fuck are you sharing a platform with these people?

There better be trap doors under the platform.

[robbo203]

What then is the justification of this debate if not to win the hearts of people? Anyone who will listen won't be swayed as their hardcore enough to be "immune" to debating. Anyone who could change their mind probably won't be interested in the debate.

I think you are assuming there will be only SPGBers and UKIPers at the debate which is almost certainly an unwarranted assumption. It is probably towards the "undecided" that the debate will be mainly pitched

That aside, do not assume anyone is hardcore enough as not to be swayed. I personally know of a case of someone who was once a member of the National Front, becoming a revolutionary socialist through exposure to socialist ideas. It happens . Not often I grant, but it does happen.

To be honest, I consider a "no platform" approach to be utterly ridiculous anyway and not a little arrogantly elitist and patronising. Its like us ordinary workers have to be shielded by the glorious vanguard from exposure to the nationalisitic claptrap that UKIP peddle lest we succumb to it. Our feeble minds are incapable of withstanding the persuasive logic of the nationalists, see, so we must be prevented from hearing those arguments.

Bullshit. People get to hear those arguments anyway everyday on the TV and in the newpapers and its brilliant that, for once, we have a revolutionary socialist organisation standing up to those arguments and exposing them for the claptrap that they are. And yet here we have people calling themselves revolutionary socialists actually moaning about this. 'Feckin unbelievable.

[Remus Bleys]

Well Robbo, I seriously doubt any "undecided" will go to the debate.
And the no platform, ie the refusal to legitmize these ideologies, is elitist to you? Really? Ordinary workers have shit like hating gays or immigrants or women. Do we seriously need to have a polite little discussion about that or do we need to demand that unacceptable? Jesus, have a backbone.

[robbo203]

Well Robbo, I seriously doubt any "undecided" will go to the debate.
And the no platform, ie the refusal to legitmize these ideologies, is elitist to you? Really? Ordinary workers have shit like hating gays or immigrants or women. Do we seriously need to have a polite little discussion about that or do we need to demand that unacceptable? Jesus, have a backbone.

Whaaat? How in hell's name are you "legitimising" these ideologies by publicly attacking them? Thats absurd. I mean c'mon. Your postion is akin to that of an ostrich sticking its head in the sand and hoping it will all go away. The point you fail to see is that such ideologies are already legitimised in the eyes of many workers - one recent poll apparently put UKIP ahead of both Labour and the Conservatives - and you dont deprive them of credibility by ignoring them - you attack them. Talk about "having a backbone" - why would you wish to pass up the opportunity to show up UKIP for what it is. You are effectively allowing them to have a free run by your refusal to engage with them or at the very least, providing them with a convenient pretext for saying that their political opponents have no answer to the arguments they make and this is demonstrated by their spineless refusal to debate.

Though Im not a member of the SPGB , knowing the SPGB as I do, I have no doubt that UKIP will walk away from this debate, thoroughly humiliated and trounced. The seeds of doubt will have been sown in those that might otherwise have been inclined to support some aspects of the UKIP case. You say you " seriously doubt any "undecided" will go to the debate" . I dont know on what grounds you say that. Have you been to an SPGB debate before? Ive been to a few when I lived in the the UK and I certainly did not get that impression .

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

So when did the tactic of "no platform" become a holy principle?
Seeing how the right has grown (substantially more than the left) despite this "no platform" tactic, it might be time to reconsider strategy and see "no platform" as nothing more than just a tactic appropriate for some situation but by no means for all.

[#FF0000]

Errrr since when is UKIP a fascist party? What does "No Platform" have to do with this? They're nationalists? Isn't every bourgeois party?

[#FF0000]

gonna cite "No Platform" when my friends wanna hang out but i don't want to

[bricolage]

I would love to see the list after the event of how many 'undecideds' turn up.
I really don't think it will be any at all. This thread is probably the most interest the event will get.

[bricolage]

but #FF0000 is right, UKIP aren't fascists.
they're far more dangerous.

[robbo203]

I would love to see the list after the event of how many 'undecideds' turn up.
I really don't think it will be any at all. This thread is probably the most interest the event will get.

Well, we will all have to wait and see. I suspect you will be proved wrong. But, that apart, I imagine the debate will be videoed and seen by many more people than attend it. I presume there will be reports in the local press and elsewhere too

but #FF0000 is right, UKIP aren't fascists.
they're far more dangerous.

All the more reason, then, to publicly attack them and shred their arguments to bits. How often does such an opportunity come the way of a revolutionary socialist organisation and yet we have here revolutionary socialists actually wanting to pass up on that opportunity and let UKIP carry on as usual unimpeded and unhindered by any opposition to the nationalist nonsense it peddles. Nationalist nonsense which, I may add, the so called "Labour" Party and the Tories equally endorse. Incredible. Absolutely incredible Sometimes I despair of the revolutionary Left with its head in the sand attitude towards politics

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

All the more reason, then, to publicly attack them and shred their arguments to bits. How often does such an opportunity come the way of a revolutionary socialist organisation and yet we have here revolutionary socialists actually wanting to pass up on that opportunity and let UKIP carry on as usual unimpeded and unhindered by any opposition to the nationalist nonsense it peddles. Nationalist nonsense which, I may add, the so called "Labour" Party and the Tories equally endorse. Incredible. Absolutely incredible Sometimes I despair of the revolutionary Left with its head in the sand attitude towards politics

This.
It's really ridiculous to have "no platform for fascists" and "no platform for the extreme-right" (one can argue whether or not UKIP is that) when all the other bourgeois parties are just as big proponents of nationalism, chauvinism etc. Not only that, with the ridiculous No2EU nonsense the left has put forward in recent years it has granted just as much legitimacy to Farage and the like's nationalist claims. "Bash the fash" or "no platform" can be a perfectly sensible tactic in certain cases. When a working class immigrant neighbourhood gets threatened to smashed up by, actual, fascists, or when trade-unionists or leftists get attacked by, actual, fascists it makes perfect sense to organise for working class self-defence and "bash the fash". But to see the existing ruling bourgeois parties as somehow less dangerous than UKIP when it comes to a nationalist message is ridiculous and practically a support for bourgeois rule of law constitutionalism.