EDL clash with Anti-Fascists in Bristol

[Sam_b]

What does the left have to say about this sense of betrayal British working class people feel, what do we have to say about economic migrants, benefits tourism or radical Islam?

Except the 'British working class' is comprised of Muslims, Sikhs, POC and people from all sorts of ethnic and religious backgrounds. Which makes your point pretty fucking ridiculous. Also the fact that the EDL are a shadow of their former selves and you're talking them up as some sort of mass of workers is disingenuous to say the least.

Your posts do not sit well with me at all. It's pandering and attempting to legitimise the EDL, real talk. You're also making the mistake of equating anti-immigrant sentiment, which is rife in many areas of the country, with an organisation which has been shown to carry out violent, racist attacks. These are two separate things. The EDL is not some sort of vanguard of the 'white' British working class who oppose immigration.

[Nakidana]

Revenant you're either a confused motherfucker who's been browsing MigrationWatch a bit too frequently recently, or a delusional stromfront troll who thinks he can weed out a little sympathy for white nationalism.

I hope the first is the case, but I have serious doubts.

You want English people to go away?

No, I want EDL to go away.

how do you propose you achieve that, I suggested dialogue, you say fuck that and fuck them. What is your solution?

No dialogue, confront them (and anyone else peddling anti-immigrant filth and hate) on the streets, workplace and public forums.

This is a quote from a facebook group with over 6,000 members:

Oh my, EDL supporters trying to portray themselves as ordinary peaceful citizens who're just worried about what the country is coming to in order to gain support from people put off by their disgusting racist filth. How freaking surprising. Too bad anyone with half a brain knows they're nazi scum:

+ YouTube Video

what do we have to say about economic migrants, benefits tourism or radical Islam?

That it's daily mail trash and always has been? The rich have robbed your house but you're busy complaining about a crumb missing from your table?

Do you not think more white working class people, in poor socio economic conditions are drawn towards patriotism, nationalism etc than the left, as an outlet for their frustrations and opposition to the political class?

Depending on how you define the left, no, not really.

The whole point is either group is composed of mere hooligans, or people who care passionately about their cause, whatever way you look at it.

Wait, why is being passionate about your cause a bad thing?

However much you try to equate the two groups the fact is this: One of those groups of "hooligans" will kick the living shit out of random people based on their skin color. That to most people is worse than, errr, you know, NOT beating up people because of their skin color. Thus EDL is already infinitely worse than UAF.

It's not really rocket science, you should be able to comprehend this. Unless of course you're one of the moronic knuckle-draggers.

One however (the EDL) has no political platform, no political party, no media outlet, or media coverage that answers their particular concerns.

UAF has David Cameron as a founding signatory,

And how does this not make the EDL nazi scum? It's blatantly obvious what their politics are mate, you don't need a freaking statement written down with signatories.

all 3 main parties advance what people who read The Mail consider to be destructive EU, and Immigration policies.

Hah, if people reading the mail think they're destructive immigration policies, then the policies are probably right up my ally!

You can't tell me these concerns aren't valid amongst large sections of the British Public?

They're concerns among sections of the population, yes, but that does not make them valid.

Look at Nationalist sentiment North of the Border! We're part of the same country yet the English Nationalists don't have a National party when the Scot's have a National parliament and popular Independence movement, is that just an irrelevant fact?

Maybe the English want Independence too?

English nationalism? Really? You're out of your mind.

I want to unite the working class, not divide it. Stop reading the daily mail.

[Revenant]

Except the 'British working class' is comprised of Muslims, Sikhs, POC and people from all sorts of ethnic and religious backgrounds. Which makes your point pretty fucking ridiculous. Also the fact that the EDL are a shadow of their former selves and you're talking them up as some sort of mass of workers is disingenuous to say the least.

Your posts do not sit well with me at all. It's pandering and attempting to legitimise the EDL, real talk. You're also making the mistake of equating anti-immigrant sentiment, which is rife in many areas of the country, with an organisation which has been shown to carry out violent, racist attacks. These are two separate things. The EDL is not some sort of vanguard of the 'white' British working class who oppose immigration.

I know that's what I was saying, there are actual fascist groups who do that, drawing people from groups like the EDL into fascist ideology and a fascist historical narrative, leading eventually to their participation in Fascism, the Edl is like a gateway drug.

So what are you opposing?

Average white working class Brits, who watch the telly, enjoy the footy, read shitty papers, who find an outlet for their dissatisfaction by opposing Islam, which they perceive as encroaching on Western civilization and values, by opposing immigration which they perceive as destructive to their communities and the economy, by supporting the troops and by street protesting against a political bureaucracy they perceive as out of touch with the reality they live in.

So when they end up street protesting because they feel under-represented, then they see groups backed by the political establishment silencing their protest, forcing them underground into revisionist history and conspiracy theories, then they end up exposed to fascist currents.

The fact UKIP are breaking into the political mainstream, as an "actual conservative" political party probably has a bit to do with "the EDL being a shadow of their former self".

[Revenant]

Revenant you're either a confused motherfucker who's been browsing MigrationWatch a bit too frequently recently, or a delusional stromfront troll who thinks he can weed out a little sympathy for white nationalism.

I hope the first is the case, but I have serious doubts.

What makes you think I'm the confused one?

No, I want EDL to go away.
No dialogue, confront them (and anyone else peddling anti-immigrant filth and hate) on the streets, workplace and public forums.

Wouldn't you listen to what they say about Islam, using your obvious opposition to religious ideology to convince them to listen to you as you espouse the superior cultural practice (of socialism) that is the only alternative to reactionary, delusionary religions, the only true method of actualizing the "Human Rights" and "Democracy" they claim to support?

Oh my, EDL supporters trying to portray themselves as ordinary peaceful citizens who're just worried about what the country is coming to in order to gain support from people put off by their disgusting racist filth. How freaking surprising. Too bad anyone with half a brain knows they're nazi scum:

People doing fascist gestures does not a "Nazi" make, are these people in your opinions, "fascists", "nazi scum", working class nationalists, bigots, or victims of false conciousness?

Is your use of Nazi merely a slur applied to something you don't understand and have shown no interest in analyzing?

Wait, why is being passionate about your cause a bad thing?

However much you try to equate the two groups the fact is this: One of those groups of "hooligans" will kick the living shit out of random people based on their skin color. That to most people is worse than, errr, you know, NOT beating up people because of their skin color. Thus EDL is already infinitely worse than UAF.

I think that's an exaggeration every group has a few bad eggs, not every EDL protest ends in violence and in many cases it takes two opposing forces to escalate a situation, one force, the "anti-fascist" force, is an incoherent mass of usually antagonistic elements of society that unite solely to silence protests they deem to be fascist.

They have no coherent message on any of the subjects they don't want the EDL to talk about.

Is all criticism of Islam characterized as "Islamophobia" by the UaF?
■ No to scapegoating of immigrants
■ No to Islamophobia
■ Yes to diversity
Labour Party politicians have been quoted as having admitted they "made mistakes" and that levels were too high, what about talking about failed immigration policies, is that off limits?

Does nobody see the Orwellian contradiction, surely diversity means inclusion so why are some views excluded?

It's not really rocket science, you should be able to comprehend this. Unless of course you're one of the moronic knuckle-draggers.
And how does this not make the EDL nazi scum? It's blatantly obvious what their politics are mate, you don't need a freaking statement written down with signatories.

So let's follow this to it's end, EDL encourages it's members to vote for UKIP according to their website, are all UKIP voters also racist Nazi scum?

I see the UaF website characterizes UKIP as racists do you agree with that?

Hah, if people reading the mail think they're destructive immigration policies, then the policies are probably right up my ally!

They're concerns among sections of the population, yes, but that does not make them valid.

English nationalism? Really? You're out of your mind.

I want to unite the working class, not divide it. Stop reading the daily mail.

Question, bearing in mind three of the five most popular newspapers in the UK are the Daily Mail, Daily Express and Sun, do you think the working class are more likely to unite to support, the Pro-EU Labour party widely perceived to be out of touch with it's traditional base, or some populist right wing, "anti-political establishment" alternative like UKIP?

As somebody on the left I guess you are planning to unite the working class in opposition to UKIP? Did you read Owen Jones' article about how much him and UKIP have in common?

[Sam_b]

I know that's what I was saying

No, it's fucking not what you're saying; and the fact you've quoted the post entirely goes to prove the point. You generalise about the nature of the 'British working class' (first it's just that, now they're 'average white workers' whatever the fuck that lazy generalisation means).

there are actual fascist groups who do that, drawing people from groups like the EDL into fascist ideology and a fascist historical narrative, leading eventually to their participation in Fascism, the Edl is like a gateway drug.

The fuck are you on about guy - the EDL does this shit. The fact that you say the EDL draws in people to organisations that assault and intimidate POC should be enough to oppose and not excuse away them, rather than you pandering to them as if they have some sort of point. But there are pages upon pages of evidence of the EDL carrying out racist, xenophobic actions on POC and others. This is 'not what you've been saying' in the slightest.

Average white working class Brits, who watch the telly, enjoy the footy, read shitty papers, who find an outlet for their dissatisfaction by opposing Islam, which they perceive as encroaching on Western civilization and values, by opposing immigration which they perceive as destructive to their communities and the economy, by supporting the troops and by street protesting against a political bureaucracy they perceive as out of touch with the reality they live in.

So apparently the "white British working class" all oppose immigration now? It says a lot you won't back up the assertion with facts.

So when they end up street protesting because they feel under-represented, then they see groups backed by the political establishment silencing their protest, forcing them underground into revisionist history and conspiracy theories, then they end up exposed to fascist currents.

The EDL is a fascist current. Jesus.

[Revenant]

No, it's fucking not what you're saying; and the fact you've quoted the post entirely goes to prove the point. You generalise about the nature of the 'British working class' (first it's just that, now they're 'average white workers' whatever the fuck that lazy generalisation means).

No it definitely is what I have been saying all along, EDL are one of the few outlets of Nationalist sentiment, patriotism that aren't underground fascist or extremist, or are you going to tell me what I'm saying like you tell the EDL what they are, do and say?

Because you think something doesn't make it so, many people join the EDL because patriotism speaks to their concerns, not because they are adherents to the philosophy and doctrine of fascism.

The fuck are you on about guy - the EDL does this shit. The fact that you say the EDL draws in people to organisations that assault and intimidate POC should be enough to oppose and not excuse away them, rather than you pandering to them as if they have some sort of point. But there are pages upon pages of evidence of the EDL carrying out racist, xenophobic actions on POC and others. This is 'not what you've been saying' in the slightest.

You like the word pander don't you, do you think the method employed by UaF type groups, ie to impede their freedom of expression, movement, protest etc is effective or do you think it heightens tensions between the "british working class"?

Do you think if you just boo and shout at people to shut them up they will reassess their views or become even more resolute seeing UaF are supported by the Political establishment?

So apparently the "white British working class" all oppose immigration now? It says a lot you won't back up the assertion with facts.

I'll repost it in context for you:

the Edl is like a gateway drug.

So what are you opposing?

Average white working class Brits, who watch the telly, enjoy the footy, read shitty papers, who find an outlet for their dissatisfaction by opposing Islam, which they perceive as encroaching on Western civilization and values, by opposing immigration which they perceive as destructive to their communities and the economy, by supporting the troops and by street protesting against a political bureaucracy they perceive as out of touch with the reality they live in.

Maybe I'm wrong.

The EDL is a fascist current. Jesus.

The obstinacy with which you retain this view to me signifies slightly fascist tendencies.

It's like when the bourgeois media calls peaceful protestors "violent radicals" because a few people chuck things off a roof or smash the shit out of posh shops.

A violent nationalist organization i'm willing to accept they are, but tbh I've seen no evidence the EDL are a fascist group, violent opposition with support from the establishment will push them towards fascism imo.

[Tenka]

The obstinacy with which you retain this view to me signifies slightly fascist tendencies.

It's like when the bourgeois media calls peaceful protestors "violent radicals" because a few people chuck things off a roof or smash the shit out of posh shops.

A violent nationalist organization i'm willing to accept they are, but tbh I've seen no evidence the EDL are a fascist group, violent opposition with support from the establishment will push them towards fascism imo.

I think you are intentionally ignoring the way people presently use the word "fascism" (to mean violent nationalism, to be actually fairly specific in today's context) just so you can be a nuisance. Yes, Fascism is a specific thing involving class collaborationism; that is not how it's popularly used, and that does not mean class collaboration against nazi scum equals fascism in the little-known true sense just because it involves collaboration of classes.

I don't put it past the bourgeoisie, of course, to equate lefties to nazis because some of the former broke some windows or whatever--in fact they have done that at times--but that doesn't mean shit really. White workers who sympathise with the EDL have real concerns, and that means we should be fine with their giving into racist fervour, OR somehow tweak our rabid leftie rhetoric to address them on their terms (like that isn't done already)? I'm not sure what you're trying to say other than that "UAF r the real fascists 'cause class collaboration, etc." (which, I'm sure you know, is the main drive in popular racist rhetoric--class collaborationism against the dreaded foreigners or people who don't look like us).

[human strike]

Let's ignore Revenant's stupid shit and go back to talking about the state of the EDL nationally and locally and the opposition to it.

EDL split in Bristol, from their Facebook page:

"STATEMENT FROM BRISTOL DEFENCE LEAGUE....
We have been called disloyal and back stabbers i would say wobble your heads a bit and take in who's actually gone over to BDL.That's right people who have been with the edl for 3 or 4 years.people who have travelled all over this country to demos supporting other divisions in their fight against muslim extremism.People who have lost their freedom people who have supported our troops exposed muslim grooming gangs taken on the council against the building of new mosques protested against hahlal in our schools.people who have been in the front line when it's kicked off watching each others backs.people who are total and loyal patriots.How do they get treated by edl ?with total contempt.
Let''s start with the Bristol demo where they came in and took over. In the carpark people arriving were bombarded by missles from the uaf who were allowed on the road above us.We were then ushered down a back street and on departure we were searched and let out two at a time while the uaf bayed for our blood from the pub opposite.Great organisation.
The south west r.o.s who ran the s.w from their boys club telling everyone what they could and couldn't do and anyone defying them or showing an ounce of initiative were stomped on and dispatched.The r.o. who was reported for bullying members and bullying four women who wrote statements discribing his abuse but were ignored.The same r.o. who got drunk on every demo and then wanted to fight fight fellow edl members.The same r.o. who has been grooming Paul Bradley for the last two months and corrupting his mind with visions of power and glory.
This is the Paul Bradley who posted the venue a of a meeting on f.b,the one who has been plotting and colluding with above r.o. behind everyones backs.The one who on the mosque demo didn't meet in the pub with the rest to go together but arrived an hour early at the demo point and managed not to get his head kicked in.The same person who in the middle of the demo walked through police lines to shake hands with the leader of the uaf and thank him for a peaceful demo.The same paul Bradley who ran crying to managment that he'd been threatened when he showed disrespect to several members.Don't be fooled by this person the people who have stayed with him have only done so because they've just bought their hoodies....duh.
So to Tommy who called us uneducated council estate right wing extremists,so to the ludicrus statement put out by managment last week which is now aparently being blamed on the approval of all r.o.s. The edl has become a joke.Don't get us wrong WE ARE TRUE EDL PEOPLE AT HEART THE PROBLEM BEING THE EDL IS NOT THE EDL ANYMORE.It's a joke.
Bristol has been a rouge division for over a year we just refused to listen to them and got on with what we are here for to fight, muslim extremism,in the end and we grew bigger and stronger for it.So what does managment do?use back handed tactics to corrupt young members and destroy the division.Well you haven't,they will learn and we will go where we want and do what we want.We stand with all the good people who have left the edl for similar reasons.
WE ARE BRISTOL AND WE WILL DEFEND OUR COUNTRY..WE DON'T SURRENDER TO ANYONE.

Note that EDL typically use "UAF" as a blanket term for all anti-fascists. There are two references to militant action taken against them at their demo in Bristol in 2012, but these in fact were not carried out by UAF at all. Some people were branded as "squadists" by swappies and UAF for supporting that action. I don't know anything about this alleged hand-shaking incident from their latest demo.

[Nakidana]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say other than that "UAF r the real fascists

This is why I'm very suspicious of Revenant. Claiming that anti-fascists are the real fascists (or that anti-racism is the real racism) is typical far-right rhetoric.

[Revenant]

To be honest I prefer Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens, but since we're here to idolize the working classes I thought I would state what I thought about the EDL.

That they are one of the few non-facist or neo-nazi organizations representing actual people's opinions in this country towards Islam, Immigration, the EU and UK Sovereignty.

UKIP are far more aristocratic, yet because they are "willing to let people have a voice on Europe" and echo false consciousness propagated in the media to dupe the working classes, despite having pro-aristocratic, pro-millionaire reforms, we see the working classes are reported to vote for them.

On a superficial level what UAF groups do is fascist, their only purpose is to silence the only working class outlet of nationalism/patriotism available to people, to be objective about the EDL, the things about England they highlight, ie Democracy, our well established concepts of Rights, which rightly are in contradiction to Theocracy and our support of international exchange, though there may have been an Imperialist tendency there has also always been an anti-Imperialist tendency.

People of the UK are literally brought up to respect the country, it's monarchy and institutions so why call them racist, when under the pressures we all experience they react in a way that only demonstrates they haven't been exposed to communist or socialist literature, propaganda or philosophy.

Would you accept the UK has done great things, mainly the working class has been the driving force of this, but also that the last fifty years have been a story of how evil communism and the working class "actually is" (supposed to be)?

I know intelligent people, who've worked in high positions of influence, who's only reference point (many know nothing at all) for communism is how evel Pol Pot, Mao or Stalin were,, I admire the latter two's philosophical contributions however, transfer the word communist for liberalism/spirituality/open mindedness and these individuals are basically good people who aspire to something better than a world system based on exploitation, of land, animals, people etc.

A couple of generations have grown up with a bourgeois state, televised conception of what they are and what history was.

Look at print and news media and what's popular, even the internet is drowned by celebrity culture or memes, (the socialist memes are good though) people who don't go to University or college don't get exposed to communism or actual history, how advanced their sense of passion in opposition appears to you, reflects the absence of any attempt by the Labour Party directly appeal to the sentiments of the working class ie suggesting to raise the millionaire tax rate to 70p to help finance public regeneration works and training for every unemployed person.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

To be honest I prefer Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens, but since we're here to idolize the working classes I thought I would state what I thought about the EDL.

That they are one of the few non-facist or neo-nazi organizations representing actual people's opinions in this country towards Islam, Immigration, the EU and UK Sovereignty.

You would say that their opinions are valid?

On a superficial level what UAF groups do is fascist, their only purpose is to silence the only working class outlet of nationalism/patriotism

lol. That's not what fascism is for fuck's sake. There is no manifestation of nationalism and patriotism that isn't reactionary.

UKIP are far more aristocratic, yet because they are "willing to let people have a voice on Europe" and echo false consciousness propagated in the media to dupe the working classes, despite having pro-aristocratic, pro-millionaire reforms, we see the working classes are reported to vote for them.

And you are not willing to see that EDL and UKIP are two shades of the same colour?

Would you accept the UK has done great things,

It hasn't. The UK has not done anything. The nation is nothing.

A couple of generations have grown up with a bourgeois state, televised conception of what they are and what history was.

Yeah, that their nation is marvellous and something to be proud of. Say, what is real history, then?

[Revenant]

clearly the story of the development of humanity to a general level of well being, but that's besides the point, it's very disingenuous to quote only half of my post, it highlights the kind of behaviour I am speaking about, akin to censorship or revisionism.

People may well reject the validity of the EDL's arguments, I have never seen anybody attempt to do so respectfully on any occasion, disagreement with somebodies opinion is no justification for violently opposing them.

If you try re-reading you may come up with a more constructive criticism or debate some of the facts I mentioned, that the EDL and UKIP are two sides of the same coin, the working class EDL and middle class and aristocratic UKIP, are expressions of genuine concerns poorly or ideologically educated individuals hold, that have arisen in part because of the absence of a Left wing.

I sometimes perceive opposition to the EDL as snobbery or elitism, they aren't even given the honour of a rigorous debunking, people just think they can shout and shout and alienate what is actually a "pan-european" tendency of "Islamophobia" further towards extremism.

[Revenant]

Anti-Semitism is actually more prevalent amongst the Fascists who often find their ideology completely compatible with Islamic resistance to modernization, democracy or liberalization, Buddhism and Indo-Aryan, Celtic, or Norse offshoots also are compatible completely to actual fascism in Britain, which is long and well established and based not on "human rights" or "democracy" but "ancient pagan rites, and priestly hierarchic castes".

The post above by Whatever Singularity is a good one, if you follow the recent disintegration of the EDL you will see these radical groups are apparently opposed fundamentally to "Zionism", and the EDL leaderships suppport of Israel and also the moderate approach of the EDL.

Eventually people will get sick of being ganged up on and silenced, not taken seriously but violently dismissed, being outnumbered and outflanked, and they will turn to lone wolf extremism, also a long established trend within actual fascist ideology.

This is clearly a bad thing that people are leaving the EDL, to more violently impose their will against the state and immigrant community. What do you think WS of the EDL's public denunciation of White separatism, Neo-Nazis and Anti-Semitism?

[Nakidana]

What makes you think I'm the confused one?

I didn't say I thought it, I said I hoped it. Tbh, based on your rhetoric I'm leaning the other way atm.

Wouldn't you listen to what they say about Islam

No, because what they say about Islam is bullocks. It's really just an easy way to hate brown people without blatantly exposing yourself. Fortunately this thinly veiled racism isn't really kidding anyone, apart from you maybe.

using your obvious opposition to religious ideology to convince them to listen to you as you espouse the superior cultural practice (of socialism) that is the only alternative to reactionary, delusionary religions, the only true method of actualizing the "Human Rights" and "Democracy" they claim to support?

No, I wouldn't waste time talking to these neo-Nazis. I don't spend time trying to convert policemen to my viewpoint either.

People doing fascist gestures does not a "Nazi" make

Well it's a pretty fucking high on the "stupid shit Nazis do" list, don't you think?

Today the Nazi salute is solely associated with Nazism, obviously people performing it do it to display their allegiance to said ideology.

, are these people in your opinions, "fascists", "nazi scum", working class nationalists, bigots, or victims of false conciousness?

All of the above.

Is your use of Nazi merely a slur applied to something you don't understand and have shown no interest in analyzing?

No, it's just a fact that the EDL contains neo-Nazis. If it bothers you so much we could also agree to call them far-right nutcases.

I think that's an exaggeration every group has a few bad eggs,

No, the EDL is all bad eggs.

not every EDL protest ends in violence and in many cases it takes two opposing forces to escalate a situation, one force, the "anti-fascist" force, is an incoherent mass of usually antagonistic elements of society that unite solely to silence protests they deem to be fascist.

You don't seem to understand; I don't want the EDL to protest. I don't want them marching up and down the street propagandizing their perverse views. I want them to be silenced. This would be the case even if they weren't violent.

They have no coherent message on any of the subjects they don't want the EDL to talk about.

Is all criticism of Islam characterized as "Islamophobia" by the UaF?
■ No to scapegoating of immigrants
■ No to Islamophobia
■ Yes to diversity

No, not all criticism of Islam is characterized as Islamophobia by the UAF. The three points you listed sound perfectly coherent and agreeable to me. I don't see what your problem is.

Labour Party politicians have been quoted as having admitted they "made mistakes" and that levels were too high, what about talking about failed immigration policies, is that off limits?

No, obviously not as you don't have UAF protesting those politicians. Not that there would be anything wrong with such protests, seeing as how such admissions are just stupid anti-immigration bullshit, espoused in an attempt to pander to racist segments of the population and win votes.

Does nobody see the Orwellian contradiction, surely diversity means inclusion so why are some views excluded?

Because the presence of those views limit diversity. If we want to achieve a truly diverse society, those views need to be combated.

So let's follow this to it's end, EDL encourages it's members to vote for UKIP according to their website, are all UKIP voters also racist Nazi scum?

Nope, but most of them probably vote for Ukip because racism. If the EDL encourages something that something is very likely to be wrong.

I see the UaF website characterizes UKIP as racists do you agree with that?

Yes.

Question, bearing in mind three of the five most popular newspapers in the UK are the Daily Mail, Daily Express and Sun, do you think the working class are more likely to unite to support, the Pro-EU Labour party widely perceived to be out of touch with it's traditional base, or some populist right wing, "anti-political establishment" alternative like UKIP?

Labour.

As somebody on the left I guess you are planning to unite the working class in opposition to UKIP? Did you read Owen Jones' article about how much him and UKIP have in common?

Nope, but I assume you're referring to this? In that article he's not saying he and Ukip have a lot in common, he's saying he and Ukip voters have a lot in common. He argues that the Ukip leadership is actually working against the interests of their working class voters, which is of course completely true.

Anyway, just because they're working class it does not mean their concerns about immigration are valid.

[Revenant]

I don't necessarily disagree with everything you've said, I just feel things are a lot more nuanced than you appear to believe.

Working class voters and the 'progressive' left: a widening chasm

The triumph of identity politics means too many progressives appear willing to dismiss the white working class as socially backwards and not worth listening to.

article

[Revenant]

We are Marxists, and Marxism teaches that in our approach to a problem we should start from objective facts, not from abstract definitions, and that we should derive our guiding principles, policies and measures from an analysis of these facts.

It's not an objective fact that the EDL are German National Socialists, advocating eugenics programs or "ghettoization" of immigrant communities, in fact there are numerous examples of them publically advocating more integration, from their website:

We don’t want a society in which different communities live apart and there become parts of this country where you can’t walk down the street. And although we’re accepting of people from any number of different cultural backgrounds, we don’t want these cultural traditions to be preserved when they’re at odds with our own culture.


Barbaric practices such as honour-killings or female genital mutilation, for example, can’t be allowed to take root in Britain. We should also be free to assert the supremacy of British law in any cases where individual rights and freedoms are challenged by the cultural practices of any immigrant communities.


This is not a demanding standard, and should form the foundations of any successful approach to ensuring integration. As the government paper proudly asserts, “[t]he overwhelming majority of us believe in treating people fairly and with respect, no matter what their background”.

This will be another reason they are opposed by actual fascist, white separatist and neo-nazi groups, because they speak about greater integration, not deportation.

[Nakidana]

It's not an objective fact that the EDL are German National Socialists, advocating eugenics programs or "ghettoization" of immigrant communities,

No, but it's an objective fact that they have members who are neo-Nazis.

in fact there are numerous examples of them publically advocating more integration, from their website:

Integration is just a fancy word for making immigrants jump through silly hoops that people who were born in the country never had to. Second, what they're actually advocating in that piece of trash you posted is that "our culture" (whatever the hell that is) always takes precedence over immigrant culture. This is a completely moronic and bigoted viewpoint that only serves to belittle immigrants.

This will be another reason they are opposed by actual fascist, white separatist and neo-nazi groups, because they speak about greater integration, not deportation.

The only reason they don't speak about deportation etc is because they're trying to appeal to more people by distancing themselves from the "racist" and/or "fascist" label they've quite deservedly received. If they could get away with it they'd definitely go all the way.

Of course this results in them being scorned by the uncompromising principled sections of the far-right (I guess in the same way we scorn social democrats). Regardless, this whole charade does not in any way make the EDL more acceptable.

[Anti-Traditional]

That they are one of the few non-facist or neo-nazi organizations representing actual people's opinions in this country towards Islam, Immigration, the EU and UK Sovereignty.

Really? I've ran through all the people I see on a regular basis and I can only think of two who would have any sympathy with the EDL.

On a superficial level what UAF groups do is fascist, their only purpose is to silence the only working class outlet of nationalism/patriotism available to people

Wanting to silence a group isn't fascist. Fascism isn't just a word to describe political coercion. It is a nationalist ideology which demands obedience to an authoritarian state and usually arises in opposition to the militant working class.

I know intelligent people, who've worked in high positions of influence, who's only reference point (many know nothing at all) for communism is how evel Pol Pot, Mao or Stalin were,, I admire the latter two's philosophical contributions however, transfer the word communist for liberalism/spirituality/open mindedness and these individuals are basically good people who aspire to something better than a world system based on exploitation, of land, animals, people etc.

They were pretty damn evil.

[PhoenixAsh]

but since we're here to idolize the working classes

We are not here to idolize the working class. Where the hell did you get that idea? We are here to create class consciousness in the working class in order to create a classless society. This does not mean we pander to parts of the working class when they develop ideas and ideologies which are contrary to this goal.

The fears and concerns you say the "white" working class has and expresses through organisations as the EDL are based within the nature of capitalism where the bourgeoisie specifically creates and exploits fear of and division between groups.

The EDL is a willing tool as well as an accelerator that exploits and furthers this goal.
As such there is no negotiation or debate with the EDL. The organisation is a class enemy working with the system. They do not only act as a channel for false class consciousness but they actively promote this false consciousness by pitting workers against each other.

EDL leadership in the past has stated they do not wish to form a political party because (and I quote) "we know who our masters are and we just want them to do their job". This is tantamount to class collaboration.


They do so under the guise of combating radical islam but in reality target specific ethnic groups by false generalizations. Which is the definition of racism.

The EDL is therefore thoroughly reactionary, racist and large parts of the EDL are fascists pur sang. Maybe not in the traditional definition of the term but definitely in their expression, politics and tactics.

The EDL is not opposed by neo-nazi's and fascist groups. Only when those groups member base are threatened is that the case. In fact a large portion of the EDL members are drawn from fascist and neo-nazi groups and parties. Not to mention the fact that foreign neo nazi groups and fascist participate in EDL demo's and actions.

We however do not give a platform for fascists and racists....not even when they are composed of members of the working class. They need to be rooted out like the poisonous weed they are not debated with so they can spew more of their poison.

The discourse we do have is with everybody outside such groups. That is who we will talk to and whose issues we will address.

We also do not say yes to diversity to include just any ideology and belief or nationalistic sentiment. We very specifically exclude groups, ideologies and sentiments. Especially those who actively oppose the creation of class consciousness and oppose the abandonment of capitalism. Diversity means that everybody is not the same...not that all ideologies should be accepted and tolerated.

Your defense of the EDL is spurious and misguided as the most optimistic interpretation of your motives to do so.

[Revenant]

No, but it's an objective fact that they have members who are neo-Nazis.

Integration is just a fancy word for making immigrants jump through silly hoops that people who were born in the country never had to. Second, what they're actually advocating in that piece of trash you posted is that "our culture" (whatever the hell that is) always takes precedence over immigrant culture. This is a completely moronic and bigoted viewpoint that only serves to belittle immigrants.

The only reason they don't speak about deportation etc is because they're trying to appeal to more people by distancing themselves from the "racist" and/or "fascist" label they've quite deservedly received. If they could get away with it they'd definitely go all the way.

Of course this results in them being scorned by the uncompromising principled sections of the far-right (I guess in the same way we scorn social democrats). Regardless, this whole charade does not in any way make the EDL more acceptable.

You are selectively highlighting facts to suit your purpose, by focusing on the "extremist" elements, attracted to an organization that engages in public demonstrations and community organizing, you are doing exactly what the media does when they tarnish "anti-cuts" protesters, by focusing on the masked vandals who smash up people's businesses.

The majority of EDL members are not Neo-Nazi's, the Neo-Nazi's as mentioned make propaganda posters calling the EDL the JDL, and are thoroughly anti-semitic and underground, but they probably recruit people from the EDL, former members of the EDL have also been removed for Nazism, Tommy Robinson has also publically denounced Racism, Fascism and Nazism.

Many of these groups have much more developed ideological systems than the EDL, who are basically a one issue organization highlighting an absence of political/public discourse about Immigration and Islam.

I think people who move to the UK from undeveloped economies are also, if not more susceptible to ideological manipulation.

What do you think of Tommy Robinson's current endeavours with the Quilliam foundation, are you equally as cynical about his motivations for that side of his involvement in opposition to Islam as you are about the EDL and people who join it?