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"from dieudonné to nicolas anelka: hands signal new french race row"
an interesting and disturbing article, with anelka clearly performing the quenelle today, and his manager currently defending him against charges of antisemitism, it's a story i'm going to pay attention to.
Last edited by ed miliband; 28th December 2013 at 23:12.
Until now, the left has only managed capital in various ways; the point, however, is to destroy it.
for the anelka story:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/...a-nazi-gesture
Until now, the left has only managed capital in various ways; the point, however, is to destroy it.
To be fair to Keith Downing, I very much doubt he had even heard of Dieudonné or the quenelle before yesterday (putting him in the same boat as the vast majority of Brits), and he certainly wouldn't have known about the ongoing furore in France about this whole issue; he's put his foot in it by commenting when confronted with the question, despite not actually knowing enough about the situation to make a real judgement, but we shouldn't pretend that he knew what it meant to be 'Team Dieudo' - particularly in the current climate - before echoing Anelka's line that he was just dedicating the goal to a friend. That also goes a long way to explaining the somewhat confused reaction from many people here in England, for whom it is an entirely meaningless gesture.
That's the same problem the FA face. They wouldn't bat an eyelid at this seemingly innocuous gesture is nobody brought it to their attention, but the Premier League is a global spectacle, and the reality is that on the other side of the Channel, the French government/SOS Racisme/UEJF/Grand Mosque/etc. are condemning it, so I can't imagine the FA disregarding all that and saying that they won't take any action in this case because English spectators wouldn't have found the gesture offensive (or even known about the possibility of finding it offensive), even if that means wading into a French domestic affair. Not least because lambasting Spurs fans for the 'Yid Army' stuff would suddenly seem wildly insincere.
Anelka certainly hasn't helped his cause, though, by openly linking it to Dieudonné himself. Had he used the standard Dieudonnist excuse - that the quenelle is an anti-establishment protest gesture or even just a fun trend amongst the French youth (though given the manner in which it is routinely performed, we can legitimately ask what exactly this 'establishment' is supposed to be and/or what's 'fun' about the trend; it's not like quenellists don't themselves link the gesture with Jews, even if an individual quenellist may claim that they did not have such intentions) - then it may well have been possible to give him the benefit of the doubt, but as it stands, one need only cast an eye over Dieudonné's career/reputation/current battle with the law to realise that dedicating anything to him is more than a little sketch...
Why is Dieudonné, a blatant anti-Semite, so popular? The gesture is disgusting, I can't believe it has gone viral. I've got a feeling half the people doing it don't consider it racist but just anti-establishment.
Because Dieudonné is a populist, his humour is the one popular in 1939. He mixes antisemitism with antizionism and spreads the "popular belief" that Jews are evil, control the world, and so on. The people that like Dieudonné are uneducated people looking for someone "telling them the real truth" and giving an explanation to why they are betrayed by society. That's why the quenelle is mistaken for an anti-system gesture.Why is Dieudonné, a blatant anti-Semite, so popular? The gesture is disgusting, I can't believe it has gone viral. I've got a feeling half the people doing it don't consider it racist but just anti-establishment.
The quenelle is just a meme that means person x is full of shit, up to here - measured by hand on your arm. It's been conflated with antisemitism because of a shitty remark made by Dieudonné. There are laws on the books in the EU that criminalize anti-semitism that can be very useful for stopping people from doing stuff like this:
this is pure apologism, intentional or not. "shitty remark made by Dieudonné" - there's a lot more to the fucker than a single "shitty remark". the quenelle is anti-semitic, and to suggest its merely an anti-establishment (or anti-zionist) symbol is to take dieudonne and his far-right pals at face value. it's this kind of idiocy that makes the kind of far-right / far-left crossover these cretins want possible.The quenelle is just a meme that means person x is full of shit, up to here - measured by hand on your arm. It's been conflated with antisemitism because of a shitty remark made by Dieudonné. There are laws on the books in the EU that criminalize anti-semitism that can be very useful for stopping people from doing stuff like this:
nothing dodgy about this, nothing at all:
here's a nice photo of mr le pen performing it:
so, are they just saying anne frank is "full of shit, up to here" in this photo? how nice of them...
Until now, the left has only managed capital in various ways; the point, however, is to destroy it.
It's a proof that anti-semitism is still widespread in europe.Why is Dieudonné, a blatant anti-Semite, so popular? The gesture is disgusting, I can't believe it has gone viral. I've got a feeling half the people doing it don't consider it racist but just anti-establishment.
It makes me angry that so much people are still defending Dieudonné, even if his anti-semitic intensions have been pointed out at least a thousand times. They just call it a "zionist conspiracy" and turn their brain completely off.
So I suppose all these people are hardened neo-nazis eh? (And I wasn't even cherry picking like you, this was all on the first page of image results.)
(that guy is mocking Muslims, so maybe its Islamophobic too)
But according to your logic - I suppose that everyone in guy fawkes masks are just fucking nazi scum too?
I'm not defending Dieudonné, I don't even understand French - I'm just trying to be objective. Objectively speaking, the English language articles sound like drummed-up bullshit.
Last edited by adipocere; 16th January 2014 at 22:18.
it's not about them being hardened neo-nazis, nobody said that, it is about them all being fucking idiots though. as has been put elsewhere:
why are you attempting to defend it? what is there to defend here?
Until now, the left has only managed capital in various ways; the point, however, is to destroy it.
The gesture has been around for 9 or so years, this supposed racist(or "antisemitic", which I think is a lousy term by the way, it should have been superseded by "racist" a long time ago - racism against Jews isn't special or unique and doesn't deserve its own term, racism is racism is racism is racism) subcontext was conjured relatively recently by the Zionist CRIF. They are rather upset by Dieudonné's disparaging remarks about the Zionist Entity and his support and collaboration with Palestinian liberation groups. Apparently, the quenelle is now an inverse Nazi salute(the logic behind an inverse Nazi salute being racist is puzzling to me, wouldn't an inverse Nazi salute mean the opposite? i.e anti-Nazism? the mental gymnastics these Zionists have to perform, it's amazing...). Yeah, right.this is pure apologism, intentional or not. "shitty remark made by Dieudonné" - there's a lot more to the fucker than a single "shitty remark". the quenelle is anti-semitic, and to suggest its merely an anti-establishment (or anti-zionist) symbol is to take dieudonne and his far-right pals at face value. it's this kind of idiocy that makes the kind of far-right / far-left crossover these cretins want possible.
nothing dodgy about this, nothing at all:
here's a nice photo of mr le pen performing it:
so, are they just saying anne frank is "full of shit, up to here" in this photo? how nice of them...
Anyhow, what exactly do those photos prove? That out of the millions of Europeans(a few million just in France itself) that have used the gesture, a few dozen have uploaded photos of themselves using it in what might be argued to be a racist fashion? But your example are just awful. The Aushwitz guy is in Poland, the Berlin Holocaust Memorial guy is in Germany and so are the Anne Frank guys. What do they have to do with a predominantly French gesture and the gesture's French comedian inventor? And Le Pen? Him and his daughter are class-a racist fucks but how does Jean-Marie's use of the gesture prove in any way that it has anti-Jewish connotations? The victims of the FN's racism are immigrants. Asians, Africans, Middle Easterns, and especially Muslims of those origins, but of course Jena-Marie only gets persecuted for his Holocaust
revisionism/denialism, because that is so much more worse.
American(or British?) observers know better than those idiotic Frenchies what a French gesture means, naturally. Without a doubt.
Last edited by Raquin; 16th January 2014 at 22:25.
I don't live in the UK or France. I am not really aware of the implications of this gesture in France or of how it is going down in England. However, I do follow the Premier League, and the thing that really struck me about this is how people, ex-professionals and commentators on the radio and TV have responded by saying how terrible this al is, and how he deserves at least a five match ban. Of course racism is not acceptable, but it seems to me very strange that people are demanding at least a five match ban for someone who makes a gesture that none of them really understand, and how somebody who called somebody a "fucking black ****", which I presume the meaning of which is clear to everybody, only got a four match ban. It may seem beside the point, but one of these two people was a black foreign man, and one of them was white and the captain of the English national football team. I wonder which was which.
Devrim
No, those people wearing Fawkes masks aren't Neo-Nazis, son. They are just sympathizers of an underground conspiracy which is trying to overthrow the government of the UK and institute a Catholic theocracy in England on the Pope's orders.
I guess I don't understand this gesture. Exactly what context would it be used in? I don't get the photo that looks like it's from a wedding reception or a family reunion with the entire family doing it for the camera, not when put side by side with the dudes doing it in a situation that does look pretty anti-semitic like the auschwitz one and the anne frank one.
Man is but a goat in the hands of butchers
so, you're reducing dieudonne's numerous statements on jewish people everywhere to anti-zionism? that's some pretty nasty ground you're stepping on. yeah, anti-zionism isn't antisemitic, but the likes of dieudonne use anti-zionism as a fig leaf to cover up their deeper motives.
alain soral, pictured in this photo - and the photo at auschwitz above is a key figure on the french far-right... and a good friend and political ally of dieudonne. le pen is the godfather of one of dieudonne's kids... why are you brushing over this, ignoring it? i think it needs to be discussed when we're talking about dieudonne, the quenelle and so on.
Until now, the left has only managed capital in various ways; the point, however, is to destroy it.
and if people choose to think everything they read about dieudonne and the quenelle is from a zionist news source, here are some sources you can't accuse of being so:
http://quartierslibres.wordpress.com...des-skinheads/
http://albruxelles.wordpress.com/201...des-imbeciles/
Until now, the left has only managed capital in various ways; the point, however, is to destroy it.
I'm not stepping on squat and I'm not reducing Dieudonné's anything to anything. I haven't said a single word in his defense. I'll admit his ruffling the feathers of the French ruling class I find very amusing but besides that, I don't have anything to say in his defense.
He doesn't have deeper motives, he's just stirring shit up to publicize himself. As far as his political activity goes he's only really involved himself when it comes to issues like agitating for trolling Israel, immigrant rights, sticking up to the poor and so on, i.e, our side of the fence.
Eh, Alain Soral isn't a key figure on the French far-right. He's a sort of weird incoherent mixture of both right-wing ideas and far-left Marxism and communism. These days he's pretty irrelevant actually.
Anyways, like I said, I'm not defending Dieudonné or any of his buddies. I'm denying that the quenelle is inherently racist. Dieudonné ≠ quenelle.
My aunt from Belgium loves Dieudonné, and she's leftist, so i have to doubt the guy is a neo-nazi.
I honestly don't know much about him.
Now you're being silly.
Symbolisms are not eternal, no one (or a small minority) still uses Fawkes mask with that intention.
the implication was that dieudonne is only accused of antisemitism because of his stance on israel. but he has said far more about judaism and jewish people than that.
i think the issue remains that dieudonne and his milieu represent a populist, reactionary "anti-capitalism" that needs to be challenged. even if you don't take the quenelle to be racist, i think that is unquestionable.
Until now, the left has only managed capital in various ways; the point, however, is to destroy it.
