What would be the marxist stance on gun ownership?

[TheFalseprophet]

?

[#FF0000]

Generally speaking we're all for it. Every American communist I've ever known has been pro-gun ownership and against a lot of gun control measures. I find that European communists are a mixed bag, which I'd chalk up to cultural differences, I guess.

[Bala Perdida]

“… the workers must be armed and organized. The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition… Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary. ” – Karl Marx, Address of the Central Committee to the Communist League

That should basically sum it up.

[Bala Perdida]

Sorry i don't know how to cite something on here other than users so that's probably gonna confuse you.

[Blake's Baby]

From the Address to the Central Committee of the Communist League, 1850 http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...e/1850-ad1.htm

"2. To be able forcefully and threateningly to oppose this party [the bourgeois democrats], whose betrayal of the workers will begin with the very first hour of victory, the workers must be armed and organized. The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition, and the revival of the old-style citizens’ militia, directed against the workers, must be opposed. Where the formation of this militia cannot be prevented, the workers must try to organize themselves independently as a proletarian guard, with elected leaders and with their own elected general staff; they must try to place themselves not under the orders of the state authority but of the revolutionary local councils set up by the workers. Where the workers are employed by the state, they must arm and organize themselves into special corps with elected leaders, or as a part of the proletarian guard. Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary. The destruction of the bourgeois democrats’ influence over the workers, and the enforcement of conditions which will compromise the rule of bourgeois democracy, which is for the moment inevitable, and make it as difficult as possible – these are the main points which the proletariat and therefore the League must keep in mind during and after the approaching uprising...".

What they would make of America's gun laws now is another matter I guess, if that is really the question. I'm not sure they'd be in favour of a gun-death rate 40 times higher than the UK's, just because theoretically at some poit in the future Americans might stop killing each other and attempt to overthrow the state.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Generally speaking we're all for it.

What? No we aren't.

What they would make of America's gun laws now is another matter I guess, if that is really the question. I'm not sure they'd be in favour of a gun-death rate 40 times higher than the UK's, just because theoretically at some poit in the future Americans might stop killing each other and attempt to overthrow the state.

This so much.

[Sea]

Call me a radical but I think we should share the guns.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I don't really know where I stand tbh. I used to be firmly opposed to gun ownership (and I still echo Blake's Baby's final point on gun ownership tbh) but I am now by no means totally against the idea. It's difficult to see what the consequences would be like if gun ownership were made legal in a way similar to the US in a place where citizens haven't really owned weapons for centuries and I'm not entirely sure I'd like to be around to see them.

[Vanguard1917]

What they would make of America's gun laws now is another matter I guess, if that is really the question. I'm not sure they'd be in favour of a gun-death rate 40 times higher than the UK's, just because theoretically at some poit in the future Americans might stop killing each other and attempt to overthrow the state.

The link between anti-gun legislation and gun crime is by no means clear. There are states in the US with little gun-control and not a lot of gun crime, and then there are states with lots of fairly strict gun legislation and lots of gun crime. Ultimately, social conditions cause gun deaths, not the lack of laws against guns.

The Marxist position is against gun laws.

[Sabot Cat]

The Marxist position is against gun laws.

I disagree. In Marx's "Demands of the Communist Party in Germany" published in 1848, he stated the following as the fourth provision for his political platform:

"4. Universal arming of the people. In future the armies shall be simultaneously labour armies, so that the troops shall not, as formerly, merely consume, but shall produce more than is necessary for their upkeep.

This will moreover be conducive to the organisation of labour."

(http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...1848/03/24.htm)

He reiterated this principle in the 1850 address that Blake's Baby already quoted, and as he noted, whether or not the Marxist position is the correct one for these circumstances is another matter.

[Lily Briscoe]

"...The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition..."

Govmint tryin' to take our cannons...

Anyway, a lot of young, male, rural American lefties seem to have a gun fetish and try to construct stupid political justifications for it.

On a gut level, my feeling is more or less 'I hope the government takes your guns you assholes'. But on a political level, I think the whole issue is basically a giant distraction and I don't think the legal status of firearms is at all relevant to working class self-organization in 2013.

[#FF0000]

Anyway, a lot of young, male, rural American lefties seem to have a gun fetish and try to construct stupid political justifications for it.

i know hella working class women who are armed and like guns too, though? I mean, almost everyone I know here owns at least a long rifle or a cheap 9mm. The most heavily armed people I ever saw were a bunch of women from the local roller derby team who all went out and got AK-47s lol

On a gut level, my feeling is more or less 'I hope the government takes your guns you assholes'. But on a political level, I think the whole issue is basically a giant distraction and I don't think the legal status of firearms is at all relevant to working class self-organization in 2013.

Being a gun-toting dummy I can still see where you're coming from. If gun control were, maybe, limited to handguns, i could understand that -- but I still just can't get behind the State disarming working class people.

[#FF0000]

also fuck american gun culture. what a toxic morass that is.

[The Jay]

Govmint tryin' to take our cannons...

Anyway, a lot of young, male, rural American lefties seem to have a gun fetish and try to construct stupid political justifications for it.

On a gut level, my feeling is more or less 'I hope the government takes your guns you assholes'. But on a political level, I think the whole issue is basically a giant distraction and I don't think the legal status of firearms is at all relevant to working class self-organization in 2013.

Fuck you asshole. You really just tried to imply that gun owners are domestically violent with that broad brush you like to swing at everyone. It is none of your god damn business what I have in terms of defensive tools so you can feel free not to own any yourself.

Essentially, if you don't think that guns are essential for working class organization then you should advocate for what would be essential instead of making passive aggressive assertions of rape and other acts of domestic violence.

[Lily Briscoe]

Fuck you asshole. You really just tried to imply that gun owners are domestically violent with that broad brush you like to swing at everyone.

No, that actually wasn't what I was implying (although when people who are 'domestically violent' own guns, women are at a hugely increased risk of being killed). The point of leaving that link there was that gun violence has a concrete effect on peoples' lives now, and sweeping that under the rug with some abstract pronouncements about American workers overthrowing their government with legal firearms is stupid and probably accounts partly for the notable demographic pattern among pro-gun leftists.

It is none of your god damn business what I have in terms of defensive tools so you can feel free not to own any yourself.

When your 'tools' are designed for the purpose of killing, it stops being a personal matter, and it absolutely is other peoples' business IMO. Plenty of people with guns have certainly made it other peoples' business.

Essentially, if you don't think that guns are essential for working class organization then you should advocate for what would be essential instead of making passive aggressive assertions of rape and other acts of domestic violence.

Wow what are you even talking about. Control+F the word "rape" in this thread and see what comes up. If you want to dispute the statistics on gun use and domestic violence in that link, then by all means.

At any rate, this thread isn't about 'methods for working-class self-organization', it is about gun ownership, so unsurprisingly, that's what I am posting on.

[Yuppie Grinder]

American gun culture is racist. Guns themselves I'm personally very fond of, but I'm just like that.

[sosolo]

I don't want any more bourgeois laws at all, no matter what. Also, gun laws keep the ruling class (police and military) monopoly on arms in place.


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[Sabot Cat]

To expound upon my own position: I am in favor firearm ownership, if the state provides for everyone who wants one, along with other less lethal means of defense. However, this is with the caveat that prospective permit holders for firearms are subject to the most advanced lie detector tests possible (polygraph and an fMRI), so that there can be some degree of certainty as to what they intend to do with such force. Any additional questions to be added to the test will be proposed by a majority of local legislature, and approved by a majority in a referendum among the community they represent, so that firearms are not restricted for possibly authoritarian reasons. But I realize this probably isn't the most practical or cost-effective approach to gun legislation.

[Art Vandelay]

I tend to get the feeling that alot of the people here who take such harsh anti-gun stances, do so for reasons steeped in moralism (as V1917 already stated, guns don't cause violence, social conditions do) and probably have never been taught how to properly load/shoot/store a firearm safely. My dad started teaching me how to shoot at a young age and if I ever have a kid I'm going to be teaching him how to shoot as well.

[The Jay]

No, that actually wasn't what I was implying (although when people who are 'domestically violent' own guns, women are at a hugely increased risk of being killed). The point of leaving that link there was that gun violence has a concrete effect on peoples' lives now, and sweeping that under the rug with some abstract pronouncements about American workers overthrowing their government with legal firearms is stupid and probably accounts partly for the notable demographic pattern among pro-gun leftists.

I guess I never stopped to consider that people who get shot had guns incur an effect in their lives. That or I think that it is pointless to base your argument for or against gun ownership on the whole by saying that some people sometimes get killed and that some of them are women. I could say the same thing about kitchen knives or rat poison.

When your 'tools' are designed for the purpose of killing, it stops being a personal matter, and it absolutely is other peoples' business IMO. Plenty of people with guns have certainly made it other peoples' business.

Plenty as in what percentage? Plenty as in most? Are you saying that people with guns go out to kill people or that people out to kill people get guns? Those are two very different things.

Besides, what are you advocating here exactly?

Wow what are you even talking about. Control+F the word "rape" in this thread and see what comes up. If you want to dispute the statistics on gun use and domestic violence in that link, then by all means.

Are you saying that domestic violence has nothing to do with rape?

At any rate, this thread isn't about 'methods for working-class self-organization', it is about gun ownership, so unsurprisingly, that's what I am posting on.

No, you did not. All you did was say that gun ownership was not relevant to the working class and linked to an article on domestic abuse while saying that males with guns are dangerous to women.