Your Vagina Isn't Just Too Big, Too Floppy, and Too Hairy—It's Also Too Brown

[Quail]

I think this

People should be encouraged to look how they want, without feeling pressured to meet somebody else's expectations against their own wishes (or being judged for failing to do so). Whether its some bro judging women for not being tall blondes with enormous breasts, or some hippie judging women for not being sufficiently au naturel, or some moralist judging women for showing too much skin, I don't really see what difference it makes. There is always, always somebody judging though, no matter what.

is correct. But I also think there's a difference between judging women for the way they look, and pointing out that the beauty norms someone aspires to are unrealistic. On a more extreme end of the spectrum, do you think it is patronising to tell someone with anorexia that their "thinspiration" pictures are made up and photoshopped to hell, and that it is physically impossible to have a completely flat stomach? Obviously there is a difference between the way that many anorexic people glorify a certain aesthetic and the way that healthier people have a certain "ideal" standard of beauty, but I have learned anything growing up it is that subscribing to any kind of "ideal" body/face/etc is really damaging on a personal level.

I don't think this is a "conspiracy" by the beauty industry, but it is clear from the various products available and the adverts for them that the beauty industry preys on and exploits insecurities that women already have. Beauty norms are enforced when it comes to employment, as you note, but they are also enforced collectively by people in society in general. They're enforced by family members, friends, colleagues, customers, people in the street you don't even know, etc.

(As long as it is done in a sensitive way and not framed as a personal attack) I think it is important to make people question their idea of beauty. On a personal level, rejecting the usual beauty norms is liberating and good for your self esteem. On a societal level, the more people accept a wider idea of what is beautiful, the less such norms will be enforced. Though I don't think they will disappear completely in a capitalist society.

[Lily Briscoe]

I think this

is correct. But I also think there's a difference between judging women for the way they look, and pointing out that the beauty norms someone aspires to are unrealistic. On a more extreme end of the spectrum, do you think it is patronising to tell someone with anorexia that their "thinspiration" pictures are made up and photoshopped to hell, and that it is physically impossible to have a completely flat stomach? Obviously there is a difference between the way that many anorexic people glorify a certain aesthetic and the way that healthier people have a certain "ideal" standard of beauty, but I have learned anything growing up it is that subscribing to any kind of "ideal" body/face/etc is really damaging on a personal level.

I don't think someone finding a model beautiful is inherently on the same spectrum as anorexia at all. It is perfectly possible for someone to note that they find a particular model beautiful as just like a banal observation, without it implying that the person making it is trying to 'measure up' to that model, or that they think the only attractive qualities are the qualities that that particular model embodies. It also isn't clear that the comment was related to self-esteem issues, or that there was this subtext where the woman who made the comment was really saying "I am so hideous" or anything like that. But even if the comment was made out of self-esteem issues (and perhaps even more so if the comment was made out of self-esteem issues), some dude responding to it by getting pissed off at her and shooting down her opinion as something she's been "spoon-fed" is absolutely patronizing, in addition to being an awful way of dealing with someone who has self-esteem issues. And yes, I think that would apply in the case of someone with anorexia.

I don't think this is a "conspiracy" by the beauty industry, but it is clear from the various products available and the adverts for them that the beauty industry preys on and exploits insecurities that women already have. Beauty norms are enforced when it comes to employment, as you note, but they are also enforced collectively by people in society in general. They're enforced by family members, friends, colleagues, customers, people in the street you don't even know, etc.

I think it is a lot more complicated than this, though. I think in a lot of the examples in bold, someone who (for example) dresses sort of frumpy and doesn't wear makeup or whatever may receive less positive attention, yes, but I think they equally may receive less negative and/or unwanted attention too. They also may have their opinions taken more seriously and be less likely to be written off as an airhead or whatever.

(As long as it is done in a sensitive way and not framed as a personal attack) I think it is important to make people question their idea of beauty. On a personal level, rejecting the usual beauty norms is liberating and good for your self esteem. On a societal level, the more people accept a wider idea of what is beautiful, the less such norms will be enforced. Though I don't think they will disappear completely in a capitalist society.

Honestly, to me this stuff basically boils down to lifestyle choices, not political acts. I think if some women feel better not using cosmetics or shaving/waxing/etc., then that is totally fine and they should do what makes them happy. But I don't think that either A. abstaining from the use of female beauty/grooming products (in the case of women), or, B. stating your completely abstract "opposition" to female beauty standards (in the case of men), has any effect at all on any broader structural phenomenon. Similarly, if people want to buy only organic, "fair trade" clothing, I don't care--that's their business. But as soon as they start convincing themselves that not 'supporting' this industry or that industry as consumers somehow translates into meaningful political action that's going to stop oppression, and then moralize/judge people who don't follow their particular consumer and lifestyle choices and accuse them of "upholding a reactionary and oppressive value system" or whatever bullshit, then I think it becomes pretty problematic. And in the case that this behavior is centered around 'the beauty industry' and 'female beauty standards', I think when it's men behaving this way toward women it stops merely being something that's obnoxious/self-righteous and actually becomes something that's really condescending and demeaning.

[Quail]

I don't think someone finding a model beautiful is inherently on the same spectrum as anorexia at all. It is perfectly possible for someone to note that they find a particular model beautiful as just like a banal observation, without it implying that the person making it is trying to 'measure up' to that model, or that they think the only attractive qualities are the qualities that that particular model embodies. It also isn't clear that the comment was related to self-esteem issues, or that there was this subtext where the woman who made the comment was really saying "I am so hideous" or anything like that. But even if the comment was made out of self-esteem issues (and perhaps even more so if the comment was made out of self-esteem issues), some dude responding to it by getting pissed off at her and shooting down her opinion as something she's been "spoon-fed" is absolutely patronizing, in addition to being an awful way of dealing with someone who has self-esteem issues. And yes, I think that would apply in the case of someone with anorexia.

I am not defending the idea of "some guy getting pissed off at her and shooting down her opinion" (I did qualify my later comment with "as long as it is done in a sensitive way and not framed as a personal attack") but if one of my friends (male or female, really) said that someone like a heavily made up, airbrushed model was beautiful with the implication that they were not, I wouldn't just stand there and not say anything. I made the comparison with anorexia because people with eating disorders often have a distorted idea of what bodies "should" look like, in the same way that someone who feels that they should look like an airbrushed model has a distorted idea of what people "should" look like. My friends have often reminded me that I compare myself to unrealistic standards and I don't find it patronising or unhelpful.

I think it is a lot more complicated than this, though. I think in a lot of the examples in bold, someone who (for example) dresses sort of frumpy and doesn't wear makeup or whatever may receive less positive attention, yes, but I think they equally may receive less negative and/or unwanted attention too. They also may have their opinions taken more seriously and be less likely to be written off as an airhead or whatever.

I think it depends on the field they're working in. Women who are "conventionally attractive" are generally seen to be less intelligent (I read this somewhere but I don't know where), so yeah it is more complicated. On the one hand, women are encouraged to look a certain way, but then there are a set of assumptions that come with actually looking like that (and a set of assumptions that come with any appearance).

Honestly, to me this stuff basically boils down to lifestyle choices, not political acts. I think if some women feel better not using cosmetics or shaving/waxing/etc., then that is totally fine and they should do what makes them happy. But I don't think that either A. abstaining from the use of female beauty/grooming products (in the case of women), or, B. stating your completely abstract "opposition" to female beauty standards (in the case of men), has any effect at all on any broader structural phenomenon. Similarly, if people want to buy only organic, "fair trade" clothing, I don't care--that's their business. But as soon as they start convincing themselves that not 'supporting' this industry or that industry as consumers somehow translates into meaningful political action that's going to stop oppression, and then moralize/judge people who don't follow their particular consumer and lifestyle choices and accuse them of "upholding a reactionary and oppressive value system" or whatever bullshit, then I think it becomes pretty problematic. And in the case that this behavior is centered around 'the beauty industry' and 'female beauty standards', I think when it's men behaving this way toward women it stops merely being something that's obnoxious/self-righteous and actually becomes something that's really condescending and demeaning.

I don't think the idea of buying organic/fairtrade is really relevant to the discussion. Getting to the point where you are confident to only use beauty products for yourself and for fun has nothing to do with "voting with your wallet" or whatever. Rejecting the commonly accepted standards of beauty in favour of accepting yourself, while on the surface is quite a personal act, both paves the way to give you the confidence to reject other standards imposed on you and to inspire other people to do the same. It doesn't require any moralising, either - whether you shave or not, wear make up or not, is a personal choice and whatever you choose is fine as long as it genuinely is a choice. I don't think moralising is an effective way of encouraging people to challenge anything anyway. If anything, it will make them feel worse, which in this case is counterproductive.

[AmilcarCabral]

You know hating, bashing, trashing others for any thing, even for driving an older car of the 1990s, 1980s and older car that are not nice, shiny and modern like the new Kia, Hyundai, Toyota Avalon, etc. that have lots of cool features, like self-parking, GPS, and that look real aero-dynamic like space-ships but are too expensive for the great majority of people, is the national sport in many countries.

The whole world is doomed, inferioty complex in the majority of people leads to hating others, if people feel powerful inside, they wouldn't need to hate, bash and trash others to boost their egoes. It's really low self esteem in many people. So when males bash, and trash female sex, there is a trait of inferiority complex in those males.

There are lots of personality disorders, people with unfulfilled love, who didn't recieve enough love from their parents and society since they are born, who bash hate and trash others as a hobby

Another thing is that Marx said that the behaviour patterns of a society is the behaviour pattern of its ruling class. So if the ruling class of a society is oppressive, evil and abusive people will behave like that


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Link:http://jezebel.com/5900928/your-vagi...also-too-brown

ugh




Now while we are here, to allow for actual discussion to take place on this thread I'm curious of your experiences with vaginas. I think we can talk like mature leftists and have a reasonable discussion on the subject matter. So basically in addition to obviously decrying this reactionary practice I think it would be helpful if we can learn about vaginas from a female perspective and the experience with vaginas. I guess I'll start with a couple things.

As some of you know I am a transwoman and during my junior year my depression came back really bad when my ex cheated on me with a couple guys, and depression tends to trigger my gender dysphoria. And as some of you might know many transpeople experience phantom limb syndrome. So one day when it was really bad I was able to used the sensation of where the vagina ought to be to have a female orgasm. It was wooonnnddeeerrrffffuulll. Seriously I envy you cis-woman, lady parts are awesome! Maybe if you are all mature enough I will share some more things. I imagine considering the maturity level of revleft there is about a 1/4th chance this won't derail but hopefully this leads to a fruitful discussion that goes beyond us simply agreeing with eachother about how reactionary this product is and can allow for an actual educational discussion.

[Petrol Bomb]

I came across this video on YouTube. I don't mean to revive an old thread, but I didn't think it should have it's own thread, as it relates closely to this.

+ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dizLqJ_LnHQ" title="View this video at YouTube in a new window or tab" target="_blank">YouTube Video

In a nutshell, it talks about policy on "soft-core" porn forcing magazine publishers to only show a certain type of vagina, which makes it the norm as you'd rarely see other vaginas in literature, thus making women self-conscious of their vaginas and opting to get surgery.

[tallguy]

From my own experience and, as far as I am aware, that of my mates, none of us give a toss about all this weird cosmetic shit that some women seem to engage in. From my own perspective and those of the men I know, we are only too grateful and, frankly, surprised if a woman is nice enough to let us near her vagina, never mind what bloody colour it is.

I'll even go so far as to suggest that at least some of the fault lies with those few women daft enough to buy into this bullshit (at least in this country. I do understand in some countries/cultures that direct coercion may be involved). And it is only a few. All of the women I know wouldn't be seen dead using this kind of shite on themselves and, frankly, I'd be a bit weirded out if I found one of them did in much the same way I'd be a bit weirded out if I found out that one of my mates was bleaching his bell-end.

[Sea]

From my own experience and, as far as I am aware, that of my mates, none of us give a toss about all this weird cosmetic shit that some women seem to engage in. ...

I'm going to be contentious here and suggest that at least some of the fault lies with those few women daft enough to buy into this bullshit. And it is only a few. All of the women I know wouldn't be seen dead using this kind of shite on themselves and, frankly, I'd be a bit weirded out if I found out they did.

This shite isn't because of "some women", it's a reflection of the revolting combination of racism and double-standards of "beauty" that prevail in our society. It's a sick symptom of a sickly society. If women are really conscientious about this, it is by the same social mechanisms that cause some members of minority groups to engage in self-hatred. Not only is what you're saying dead wrong, it is sexist too, as you imply that there is something inherently womanly about the "pretentiousness" that you divine out of this topic.

From my own perspective and those of the men I know, we are only too grateful and, frankly, surprised if a woman is nice enough to let us near their vaginas, never mind what bloody colour they are.

I'd be lying if I said that this takes me by surprise. I shed a tear for every vagina that must endure your proximity.

[tallguy]

This shite isn't because of "some women", it's a reflection of the revolting combination of racism and double-standards of "beauty" that prevail in our society. It's a sick symptom of a sickly society. If women are really conscientious about this, it is by the same social mechanisms that cause some members of minority groups to engage in self-hatred. Not only is what you're saying dead wrong, it is sexist too, as you imply that there is something inherently womanly about the "pretentiousness" that you divine out of this topic.

I'd be lying if I said that this takes me by surprise. I shed a tear for every vagina that must endure your proximity.

Well, I guess we must hang out with different women. You appear to give the impression of viewing all women as weak, psychologically vulnerable victims who must be psychologically mollycoddled at all times to protect them. Personally, if I was woman, I'd find that attitude quite fantastically sexist.

Speaking for myself, I find all of the women I know to be strong minded and completely capable of seeing through this kind of unpleasant marketing bullshit. But, then maybe I'm just attracted to strong minded women in the same way as I am attracted to strong minded men.

[Sinister Intents]

Well, I guess we must hang out with different women. You appear to give the impression of viewing all women as weak, psychologically vulnerable victims who must be psychologically mollycoddled at all times to protect them. Personally, if I was woman, I'd find that attitude quite fantastically sexist.

I don't see how Sea said anything sexist tbh. Explain?

[tallguy]

I don't see how Sea said anything sexist tbh. Explain?

I just have done. Please read the post again carefully SI.

[Sea]

Well, I guess we must hang out with different women. You appear to give the impression of viewing all women as weak, psychologically vulnerable victims who must be psychologically mollycoddled at all times to protect them. Personally, if I was woman, I'd find that attitude quite fantastically sexist.

Speaking for myself, I find all of the women I know to be strong minded and completely capable of seeing through this kind of unpleasant marketing bullshit. But, then maybe I'm just attracted to strong minded women.

I'll give you one more try after this. Nowhere did I imply that women are weak, and strength and weakness are nothing more than a reflection of social positions anyway. Women are not inherently strong and weak any more than fat black people are good tuba players. Any way you cut it, it boils down to a comparison between two separate concepts, like how "fair wage" boils down to a comparison between labor-time and productivity. Whenever you talk about alleged attribute X of group Y, you're pulling some serious apples-verses-oranges shit. That said, patriarchy does have a weakening (well, 'weakening' is an awfully broad term in this case) effect.

[Quail]

Well, I guess we must hang out with different women. You appear to give the impression of viewing all women as weak, psychologically vulnerable victims who must be psychologically mollycoddled at all times to protect them. Personally, if I was woman, I'd find that attitude quite fantastically sexist.

Speaking for myself, I find all of the women I know to be strong minded and completely capable of seeing through this kind of unpleasant marketing bullshit. But, then maybe I'm just attracted to strong minded women in the same way as I am attracted to strong minded men.

This "unpleasant marketing bullshit" doesn't happen in a vacuum though, and it's more complex than "strong minded women see through it" and "weak minded women who buy into it who deserve to be blamed for feeling inadequate in a society that demands so much of them". You can see through it while at the same time feel unable to challenge it and that you have to, to some degree, do certain things that you don't like to adhere to beauty standards.

I actually think it demonstrates a lack of awareness for you to say

I'll even go so far as to suggest that at least some of the fault lies with those few women daft enough to buy into this bullshit (at least in this country. I do understand in some countries/cultures that direct coercion may be involved).

Sure, some women do enforce social norms which oppress them. But at the same time, dismissing women who feel they have to live up to unrealistic standards of beauty as all being "daft" is a generalisation which shows little understanding of the social pressures that many women face to look a certain way.

[tallguy]

This "unpleasant marketing bullshit" doesn't happen in a vacuum though, and it's more complex than "strong minded women see through it" and "weak minded women who buy into it who deserve to be blamed for feeling inadequate in a society that demands so much of them". You can see through it while at the same time feel unable to challenge it and that you have to, to some degree, do certain things that you don't like to adhere to beauty standards.

I actually think it demonstrates a lack of awareness for you to say

Sure, some women do enforce social norms which oppress them. But at the same time, dismissing women who feel they have to live up to unrealistic standards of beauty as all being "daft" is a generalisation which shows little understanding of the social pressures that many women face to look a certain way.

I am quite aware there are societal pressures to conform to certain fucked-up ideals of physical beauty. For example, men who take cow-steroids and pump iron all day because they think that looking like a muscle-bound idiot makes them more attractive to women. Equally, women who shave every scrap of hair from their bodies so they look like pre-pubescent girls, or who scrub their vaginas with bleach because they think men will find them attractive. It's all fucked up.

However, the first thing I would say is that most men don't fall for that bollocks and neither do most women. And, by the same token that I feel perfectly at liberty to take the piss out of those men daft enough to fall for it, I take equal liberty to take the piss out of those women who are also daft enough to fall for it, whilst simultaneously recognising that there are larger societal forces at work here. For me, it serves no purpose and is, in fact, counter productive to encourage men or women into a perpetual state of infantile victim-hood. Of course, I do understand how such promotion of victim-hood gives all of us bourgeois lefties something to whine about, but it's not really helping the victims to develop the cultural strength to say fuck off to all this shite is it?

All of the above is said with the obvious serious qualification of knowing full well that there are certain parts of the world and certain cultural groups who directly coerce women to conform to ghastly physical ideals.

[Quail]

However, the first thing I would say is that most men don't fall for that bollocks and neither do most women. And, by the same token that I feel perfectly at liberty to take the piss out of those men daft enough to fall for it, I take equal liberty to take the piss out of those women who are also daft enough to fall for it, whilst simultaneously recognising that there are larger societal forces at work here. For me, it serves no purpose and is, in fact, counter productive to encourage men or women into a perpetual state of infantile victim-hood. Of course, I do understand how such promotion of victim-hood gives all of us bourgeois lefties something to whine about, but it's not really helping the victims to develop the cultural strength to say fuck off to all this shite is it?

It's not "being daft" to feel unable to fight against societal/cultural norms. There is a lot of pressure to look a certain way, and it's not "encouraging people (women in particular) into a perpetual state of infantile victimhood" to acknowledge that it exists and it is hard to stand up to - due to both internal and external factors. When you're constantly bombarded with the message that a part of your body is gross or ugly it is damn hard not to internalise that. Even more so when it seems that everybody else is reinforcing that message. If you think it's a case of "something for us bourgeois lefties to whine about", a) speak for yourself and b) you're completely fucking wrong because it's not just about unrealistic beauty standards. It's just one of the many ways in which society constantly tells women that they are not good enough and that they're not equal to men, and if you fail to place it in a wider context then maybe you need to do some reading.

[Kaoxic]

I'm rarely conscerned because I will fuck just about any of her three main orifices as long as I am sufficietly attracted to her but as far as eating it goes it won't happen unless it looks the way I want.

[Quail]

I'm rarely conscerned because I will fuck just about any of her three main orifices as long as I am sufficietly attracted to her but as far as eating it goes it won't happen unless it looks the way I want.

You're disgusting.
Infraction for sexism.

[Rosa Partizan]

I read about this product long time ago and didn't find it surprising at all. I kinda get the impression that a lot of this starts with porn, where anal and vaginal bleaching are nothing unusual, even with white actresses, who make up the majority of actresses in this business. The POC in porn are fetishized in the most disgusting ways and I don't let anyone tell me that all of this has no influence on our attitude and mindset and beauty standards. As a woman of color, you're only valued if you're (depending upon your ethnicity) especially shy/humble, exotic, sultry and much more. Being POC and not fitting in those racist stereotypes won't get you far, unless you're willing to bleach the shit out of your skin. And even then, you'll never be considered a "real white". Somehow, women of color just can't win in this fucked up society.

[Kaoxic]

You're disgusting.
Infraction for sexism.

How is it being sexism? I'm not saying any woman should conform or care about my preferences. I wouldn't complain if she didn't want to polish my man-stick for whatever reason.

I think this bleching stuff is bullshit too btw.

[Decolonize The Left]

How is it being sexism? I'm not saying any woman should conform or care about my preferences. I wouldn't complain if she didn't want to polish my man-stick for whatever reason.

I think this bleching stuff is bullshit too btw.

Dude. This isn't 4chan. "Polish your man stick"? Are you so insecure that you need to talk like this?

[Kaoxic]

Dude. This isn't 4chan. "Polish your man stick"? Are you so insecure that you need to talk like this?

Never been to fucking 4chan and don't intend to? I use only language that is nonjudgemental or clinical. Keep your politics off my body I can describe it the way I want to!