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What is this fricking obsession with violence that so many Rev-Lefters have? Look, I'm not a very strong person at all. My arms are basically pencils, and I never grew up on a farm or in any situation where I had to build up muscle. Online debating is not a waste of time. It's very easy, it's short and quick, it doesn't require a lot of planning, (except for coming up with arguments) and overall, it's much less of a hassle than getting into fights all the time. I think violence is okay if the situation is really desperate, but otherwise, getting into fights all the time makes us look like hooligan trouble-makers. We become a laughingstock, and fewer people take us seriously. Besides, if we resort to intellectual arguments, we'll get the smart people on our side, which is what we want.
Firstly you seem to be taking 'attacking fascism' more literally than it's meant in this context. Secondly, it's only an 'obsession' in the sense that we have to keep repeating to people like yourself that we should be giving no platform to fascists anytime, anywhere, and if this means physically shutting things down then so be it.
Oh I just saw this gem. So you're hoping to get 'smart people' on your side by posting on a fascist forum?
Coalition of Resistance - Fight Back Against the Cuts!
"As for the lad "Sam_b", I've been reading this forum for a while and I don't think I've ever seen him contribute anything of any value. Most of the chap's posts seem to be confrontational and snarky digs at other posters. Thankfully, most other contributors do not seem to behave in this manner." - Some Guy
Well, some members of this forum seem to think getting into physical conflicts is the way to go. Sinister Intents and Wuzhengfu come to mind.
How about instead of shutting them down, we simply refute their arguments?
Well, you seem to have forgotten that there are guests and lurkers in the open forum on Light Drizzle Front. If we were to start winning debates on the fascists' home turf, that would make us look pretty good, wouldn't it? Hooligans who get into fights and tear up the place only make us look bad, and that is what I'm trying to avoid. My mindset is that I want leftism to have a good public image, and that's not going to happen if anarchists get into unnecessary fights. If I recall correctly, most American scientists are actually Democrats rather than Republicans. It would seem that a lot of smart people are already mostly liberal, and thus, are more open to socialism. So let's get more smart people into our cause, and rely on intellectual debate at least as often as we rely on violence.
Wait, sam, are you saying you don't believe in debates? *gasp*
Imagine that! Don't you think it's absurd to have a forum moderator not believe in the almighty power of the debate?
"We must flee from Time, we must create a life that is feminine and human - it is these imperative objectives that must guide us in this world heavy with catastrophes."
Jacques Camatte, Echos from the Past
"For example, to say that the relation between industrial capital and the class of the wage workers is expressed in precisely the same way in Belgium and Thailand, and that the praxis of their respective struggles should be established without taking into account in either of the two cases the factors of race or nationality, does not mean you are an extremist, but it means in effect that you have understood nothing of Marxism."
Amadeo Bordiga, Factors of Race and Nation in the Marxist Analysis
Because 'refuting their arguments' never worked in Nazi Germany, or Italy, or when we have comrades getting knifed at shows in Russia. 'Refuting their arguments' wasn't the factor that stopped the BUF at Cable street. I wish I was so naive to think that everything will be okay once we just go on a bunch of forums and give some reasoned debates. That's not how it works. We don't give platforms to fascists, we don't legitimise their arguments by debating them on a platform, and we certainly don't risk this forum fro having another troll invasion/DDOS attack by posting on SF and then going on about it on the forums.Originally Posted by the debater
Half the posts you make on this website in some way are about arguments to level at SFers or the practice itself. I'll be honest, I find your obsession with the site totally creepy.
Heh, well played.Originally Posted by Remus Bleys
Coalition of Resistance - Fight Back Against the Cuts!
"As for the lad "Sam_b", I've been reading this forum for a while and I don't think I've ever seen him contribute anything of any value. Most of the chap's posts seem to be confrontational and snarky digs at other posters. Thankfully, most other contributors do not seem to behave in this manner." - Some Guy
Adding to that, it's also ridiculous when these dictatorial fascists try to gain sympathy claiming their "freedom of speech" and "right to protest" when their goal is to take that away from us, the minorities, the opposition, the lower class. They wine about not being welcome when they do their demonstrations despite us or anyone else using our same "freedom of speech" and our same "right to protest" to show them that their behavior and attitude is not welcome.
"Maybe some day... I'll find a way... without you.."
Oh, yes, by the way, isn't what you are suggesting what the Communists in Weimar Republic Germany tried to do to the National Socialist party?
Didn't Hitler himself made himself a Martyr, of sort, because the Socialism and Marxist, or the Reds, as he called them, tried unsucessfully to violently throw them out?
After all, in the Mein Kampf, Hitler even said that when the Red Flag, as he called them, couldn't hold their own in verbal exchange they resorted to violence forcing Hitler to recruit a bodyguard movement to ensure so that his party could surivive (Hitler's word's, more or less, not mine).
"More than once a handful of party colleagues offered a heroic resistance to a raging and violent mob of Reds. Those fifteen or twenty men would certainly have been overwhelmed in the end had not the opponents known that three or four times as many of themselves would first get their skulls cracked. " ~A direct quote from an english translation of Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler Volume 2 in The National Socialist Movement Chaper VII: The Struggle with the Red Front.
And I'll also add:
"Yes, how often did they not turn up in huge numbers, those supporters of the Red Flag, all previously instructed to smash up everything once and for all and put an end to these meetings."~also from Mein Kampf.
Hitler admited that he made the Nazi flag red because he wanted to show he wasn't afraid of the Communists in his Mein Kampf.
"We chose red for our posters after particular and careful deliberation, our intention being to irritate the Left"~yet again, from Adolf Hitler himself in an english translated version of Mein Kampf.
Yes this is history, but as the old saying goes,
"Notable Quotations from George Santayana 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' Life of Reason, Reason in Common Sense, Scribner's, 1905, page 284"
But that's more or less what Hitler and his followers did, according to the Mein Kampf, and even when the German police and the Reds were against them. After all in Mein Kampf, Hitler claimed that his party had to physically fight for their rights to speak and survive against the "Reds" and even the police secretly helped the "Reds" thus the need for bodyguard units that may later become the infamous SA and SS.
And yes, to not end up like the Socialism and Marxist in Weimar Republic Germany (who did violently tried to stop the Nazis from taking control, contrary to what some people here seems to think) we should read every one of the works our enemy puts out and disprove them, point by point, if possible.
Anyway, I'll link to places that may be of relevence and help.
Wanted: facts to destroy racism (and sexism as well)
http://www.revleft.com/vb/wanted-fac....html?t=184352
A continuation of "Wanted: facts to destroy racism (and sexism as well)"
http://www.revleft.com/vb/continuati....html?t=184408
'Anti-Racism is a codeword for Anti-White'
http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-racis....html?t=183621
And maybe a few others I may not know about (please link to them if so)
Last edited by xxxxxx666666; 17th November 2013 at 05:41.
I just want to make it clear that when I say "attack these people" I mean we have to heavily and verbally confront them. We have to show them that they cannot go around trying to convince us that Jews, blacks, immigrants, homosexuals or any other group of people in the category (that would be people who don't chose what their hated for, so it's usually ethnic people) are ruining this country and are less than human. We have to disrespect them strongly and not give them any chance to keep talking. This way we will show the people that following their example will only turn you into a hated degenerate that no one is going to listen to.
"Maybe some day... I'll find a way... without you.."
Where are white people institutionally discriminated against based on their being 'white'? And I don't mean 'white people' in positions of poverty like most of Southern and Eastern Europe - I mean white people who are economically, politically and socially discriminated on the behalf of a benefiting ethnic group.
And by fucking Buddha if you reference the god-damned former apartheid states I will spray paint the words "Commercial Farmers in Namibia, Zimbabwe and S. Africa" onto a nuclear warhead and fire it in your general direction. I cannot think of any part of the world in which 'white people' are oppressed by another 'ethnic groups' in any major manner, institutional or otherwise. On the other hand, institutional racism towards the many African ethnicities, is extremely present throughout the western world - particularly America - and even in Africa (Equatorial Guinea is basically just a rich white-majority enclave isle with a country-sized oil plantation on the African mainland).
'despite being a comedy, there's a lot of truth to this, black people always talking shit behind white peoples back. Blacks don't give a shit about white, why do whites give them so much "nice" attention?'
- Top Comment on the new Youtube layout.
EARTH FOR THE EARTHLINGS - BULLETS FOR THE NATIVISTS
if i met a nazi face to face I'd be worried about more than just how I'm going to raise a counterpoint, they kill minorities in this town
dunno how I'm supposed to have a conversation in those conditions
I ALMOST DIED OF A DRUG OVERDOSE BECAUSE OF ANARCHISM AND PUNK ROCK
Dealing with racism and race is a minimal factor in regards to socialism and communism.
That's why we should try to disprove all their points on the internet rather than face to face, lol
(or in widely read newspapers if you happened to suddenly traveled back in time before the advent of the internet, hey, that's what Hitler claimed to have done, and the American Revolution was started, more or less, by newspapers that circulated ideas around, so why shouldn't we do the same?)
...and on easy to find and understand pages I should add.
Yes, we may not change that nazi's point of view, but, as already been said here, it will make that nazi look like a fool and people will be less likely to join the nazi cause, especially if that newspaper is in wide circulation, or that website is well visited.
Besides
I think "the debater" has merits, very good points, I think.
Well, I disagree in that dealing with all forms of discrimination should be priority, after all shouldn't all socialist and communists be equal, as in not discriminated against because of race, gender, sexual perference, etc. etc.?
Yes, I know, most of you (I hope) wouldn't even entertain such ideas as discrimination, but I think we should disprove ideas that causes discrimination whenever we get the chance.
Last edited by xxxxxx666666; 17th November 2013 at 07:30.
The people on StormFront are all ready out of their minds.
I am just NOT CAPABLE of degrading myself to the point of explaining, 100 years later, why the protocols are a lie, a century later.
I their world I'm a circus freak. I'm not going to be there to give them a show.
Even those are not yet fucked up, like a guy I saw there that asked if he can make friends with the only Jew he knows in school or something (of course he got a clear no, and lerned from that) just shows you with what you're dealing here. The "normal" racists aren't driven by ideology rather instincts and brainwash in my opinion.
good god who are these people? the only sensible argument for nazis is whether to give them a tire iron or a baseball bat to the skull
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
I do encourage violence, on the streets and in their homes, as a viable tactic. Hooliganism is meaningless - carefully planed and applied violence highly effective. It served Sweden well, when the rising tide of Neo-Nazism was beat back in the 90's and early 00's. Your pacifism will not help you when they come knocking - and your "pencil arms" have not a goddamn thing to do with it.
Such violence isn't all I mean by fighting Fascism however, as correctly pointed out by Sam. The blunt violence that I advocate has, absolutely has, to be combined with widespread anti-Fascism on the streets, in the workplaces, in every public venue.
what do you mean?
I'm on some sickle-hammer shit
Collective Bruce Banner shit
FKA: #FF0000, AKA Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
Oh no, were you being sarcastic!?
Dude, if I was fricking Mark Henry or Gennady Golovkin, then maybe I would be more accepting of your point. But I don't think we should go to their homes. That's only going to make any victims of the anarchist raids look like martyrs, and then the fascists will just be "inspired" by these raids. But, if we win debates against them, and cause just enough people to leave Stormfront, and Stormfront goes offline, then instead of holding a funeral for Stormfront, they're just going to be mad as hell.
Where's your grammar comrade? Punctuation?
i had a grammar comrade once
