What are you guys waiting for?

[#FF0000]

I don't mean that to shoot you down #FF0000, it's just a thing I'm wary of making light of without disclaimers

Nah you're right. What's true in one area isn't necessarily true in others.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Stormfront is an e-cult, to a degree, perhaps. I'm going to put it out there anyways.

[Sam_b]

The same guy that thinks anti-white racism is somehow a thing and can't even hold up a debate with leftists on this board ('let's evaluate ourselves' thread) is now goading people for not debating with SFers? Please.

Also, all you people who are obsessed, I mean absolutely fucking obsessed with that website need to get a life. You can also stop putting this site in danger of being DDOSed again by attracting them over here with your fucking plans of 'debating' them.

[ВАЛТЕР]

It's a waste of time. What is there to discuss? Any white supremacists that actually used reason and basic logic wouldn't need to be debated as they themselves would quickly realize that the positions are stupid to say the least and quickly disassociate with them. Anyone with even a minimal level of critical thinking skills can see for themselves as to why white nationalism is preposterous.

[the debater]

The same guy that thinks anti-white racism is somehow a thing and can't even hold up a debate with leftists on this board ('let's evaluate ourselves' thread) is now goading people for not debating with SFers? Please.

Well one, who said I can't even hold up a debate? I could see the debates I've had here being inconclusive, but I wouldn't say I lost, objectively speaking. Now as for anti-white racism, racism exists against everybody, and from everybody. However, if you want to make the argument that black Americans are victimized by white institutions, that makes more sense than saying the entire white race is holding down black Americans. It doesn't make sense to talk about "the white race" or "the Jews" or "the black race" because mentioning races and ethnicities in such general terms doesn't take into account that not all white people are the same, not all Jewish people are the same, not all blacks, etc.

[the debater]

It's a waste of time. What is there to discuss? Any white supremacists that actually used reason and basic logic wouldn't need to be debated as they themselves would quickly realize that the positions are stupid to say the least and quickly disassociate with them. Anyone with even a minimal level of critical thinking skills can see for themselves as to why white nationalism is preposterous.

But how do you respond to a white supremacist who says that the black race is stupid because even rich blacks do worse on the SAT than poor whites? How do you respond to a white supremacist who says that multiple twins studies indicate that IQ and personality are genetic, rather than environmental? Remember, the white supremacists will use scientific studies and statistics to try to back up their claims about race and intelligence. How do you respond to the main claims posited by the book The Bell Curve when white supremacists bring up that book as evidence of black IQ inferiority? You'd be surprised at how many white supremacists would actually listen to you as long as you stick to accurate, and direct refutations of their arguments.

[the debater]

But if you want to waste your time, then go ahead.

The problem is that the last few times I've gone onto Stormfront, the retarded mods have blocked my posts. I try to be civil. I don't post interracial gay porn. I don't troll. I don't spam, and I stick to the topic. The only reason I can think of for my posts getting rejected is that they're too embarrassing to white supremacists, not because I'm breaking any civility rules.

[Fakeblock]

The problem is that the last few times I've gone onto Stormfront, the retarded mods have blocked my posts. I try to be civil. I don't post interracial gay porn. I don't troll. I don't spam, and I stick to the topic. The only reason I can think of for my posts getting rejected is that they're too embarrassing to white supremacists, not because I'm breaking any civility rules.

So why do you bother?

[Hrafn]

The problem is that the last few times I've gone onto Stormfront, the retarded mods have blocked my posts. I try to be civil. I don't post interracial gay porn. I don't troll. I don't spam, and I stick to the topic. The only reason I can think of for my posts getting rejected is that they're too embarrassing to white supremacists, not because I'm breaking any civility rules.

The problem?

You're trying to debate them.

[the debater]

So why do you bother?

Well, before my posts started getting blocked 100%, the mods actually did let through some posts of mine. There was even a thread called "Great Arguments Against White Nationalism" that I started hanging out in back in June. My posts during that time period got through for the most part. After the Great Arguments thread was closed for some reason I wasn't able to fathom, I hung out in the open forums. At that point in time, my posts still got through on a regular basis. So for awhile, my posts actually did get through. It was only towards the end of my tenure on SF that my posts finally got rejected. As for the quality of the opponents I ran into, let's just say I was, um, well, "horribly, horribly unimpressed." To truly understand how idiotic white supremacists are, and to truly fathom the extent of their lunacy, nothing beats going to Stormfront and reading the threads for yourself.

[Sam_b]

who said I can't even hold up a debate?

I did.

could see the debates I've had here being inconclusive, but I wouldn't say I lost, objectively speaking

I've been embarrassed at some of the things you've said.

Now as for anti-white racism, racism exists against everybody, and from everybody

Such as this, because you're plain wrong and seem to ignore completely the power structures that are inherent in racism existing. This whole arguing with white supremacists thing is abject stupidity and a waste of time but if I wanted anyone to represent our side it certainly someone who doesn't seem to have a clue about the manifestations of racism.

The only reason I can think of for my posts getting rejected is that they're too embarrassing to white supremacists, not because I'm breaking any civility rules.

Well why would they? It's the same here, I have no interest in either giving a platform or debating fascists on RL, so I doubt fascists particularly want to have a debate on their site with anti-fascists anyway. I would have assumed this to be pretty obvious, and it doesn't actually prove anything. Absolute waste of time and energy anyway.

[the debater]

This whole arguing with white supremacists thing is abject stupidity and a waste of time

Well, how would you respond to common arguments that are used by white supremacists? If you don't research their arguments, and you don't take the time to understand them better than they understand themselves, (slight exaggeration, but you get my point) then of course debating them is going to be a waste of time. But, if you prepare yourself well, then you'll be more successful.

but if I wanted anyone to represent our side it certainly someone who doesn't seem to have a clue about the manifestations of racism.

I may not have a clue about the "manifestations" of racism, but I do know common arguments used by white supremacists to justify their racism. Arguments like how rich black students do worse on the SAT on average vs poorer white students. Arguments like how the white race was the only race involved in starting up the Industrial Revolution, and is the only race that deserves credit for today's modern world. Arguments like how race has more to do with crime rates than poverty does. After all, poor, rural, majority-white West Virginia has a low crime rate! That proves once and for all that crime rates have more to do with race than poverty! You hate white people!

If you can refute arguments such as these, then the white supremacists won't have a leg to stand on. If you've read the Refutations thread, you'll find good refutations for the above arguments.

white supremacist) Whites are responsible for the Industrial Revolution. We're superior!

anti-racist) Not so fast. The ancient Europeans were inferior. Look at these quotes by Strabo. Whites haven't always had the upper hand technologically. This indicates that the Industrial Revolution had more to do with political and cultural factors, not racial factors.

white supremacist) But, but, even rich blacks have terrible SAT scores though.

anti-racist) Hold on now. There's evidence that a significant plurality of rich black families still choose to live in poor neighborhoods. This would offset any economic advantages held by rich black teenagers in terms of their intellectual capacity, since their environment is still identical to those of poor blacks, and since in this case, neighborhood setting is a stronger influence on school grades than socio-economic status.

white supremacist) But mixed-race people are unnatural.

anti-racist) Wrong again. Hispanics in the U.S. have longer lifespans than both blacks and whites, despite having a lot of social disadvantages in life. It seems as if mixed-race people are doing fine. Look up Cuba's infant mortality rate.

white supremacist) But, many twin studies indicate that IQ and personality are still mostly hereditary.

anti-racist) Well, there might be problems with those studies. Besides, a more careful study started in 1998, the Colorado Adoption Project, found virtually no correlation between adopted kids and their biological parents in terms of personality traits. I recall the researchers were surprised by their findings, and tried to interpret their findings to fit genetic explanations for personality.

[Sam_b]

Why should we debate white supremacists in the first place? Why should anyone here be legitimising SF by posting and engaging in that particular forum?

Wrong again. Hispanics in the U.S. have longer lifespans than both blacks and whites, despite having a lot of social disadvantages in life. It seems as if mixed-race people are doing fine. Look up Cuba's infant mortality rate.

Why has your 'anti-racist' character given an answer unrelated to the question here?

[the debater]

Why should we debate white supremacists in the first place? Why should anyone here be legitimising SF by posting and engaging in that particular forum?

Read over posts # 8, 10, and 11.

Why has your 'anti-racist' character given an answer unrelated to the question here?

By showing that mixed-race people aren't necessarily unhealthy, I'm showing that there's nothing wrong with being a mixed-race person, and thus, there is nothing "unnatural" about it.

[bcbm]

By showing that mixed-race people aren't necessarily unhealthy, I'm showing that there's nothing wrong with being a mixed-race person, and thus, there is nothing "unnatural" about it.

or there is basic biology and genetics

[the debater]

or there is basic biology and genetics

This is too general. Trust me, you want to be more specific than this. And more direct.

[Loony Le Fist]

Every moment spent debating and arguing with white supremacists on SF is a moment not spent helping workers organize, not spent helping improve conditions for all, and not spent promoting why our ideas are better. That said I think there is definitely a time and place for debate with white supremacists.

Despite those that have left SF who are possibly influenceable, the real purpose of debate is to influence neutral spectators, not to influence the opponent. I doubt many spectators on SF would be malleable to our ideas. Debating them on RL is simply preaching to the choir.

I think we need to focus on informing people rather than debating them. It is much easier to persuade others in a non-adversarial context.

[Bala Perdida]

I guess in response I would be waiting for them to actually try something. If they keep quiet then there is no reason to debate them, I won't even know they're there. However, if they are publicly trying to preach their ideas then I will step in (especially if they're gaining support) and let them know that they are not welcome and that I will not tolerate nor accommodate or respect their oppressive, fascist and racist views. This system is collapsing and times of crisis and economic instability have proven to be breeding grounds for fascism, racism, intolerance and other forms of oppression. It is crucial that we let them know that we will not be their slaves, nor will we let their tyranny gain support. It sounds hypocritical but we have to attack these people, and let them know that their intolerance is unwelcome. It's the only thing that worked.

On a side note, I'd just like to share a scary incident in class when a majority was actually starting to build up against reforming immigrants. They said that they didn't want to "reward" them for "breaking the law". Even scarier is that they had one of my family members telling others that they had to acknowledge that they "broke the law" when they decided to stay in this country.

[Loony Le Fist]

It sounds hypocritical but we have to attack these people, and let them know that their intolerance is unwelcome

Absolutely. It is not intolerant to be intolerant of intolerance. After all, it is not hypocritical to use violence to defend yourself against those that are violent against you. To be intolerant of intolerance is to defend society against reactionaries that seek to use division as a weapon to control us.

[Hrafn]

How 'bout attacking Fascism somewhere else than, say, the internet. You're always welcome in Sweden.