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What are you guys waiting for?
Is there anyone, anyone here who is willing to actually debate with white supremacists? Please tell me I am not the only one here who cares.
Why should one waste their time that could be spent doing something productive on debating a dying creepy internet species?
No, I generally prefer to be sarcastic and berate them wherever I find them. Then again, I'm not the master debater.
Come little children, I'll take thee away, into a land of enchantment, come little children, the times come to play, here in my garden of magic.
"I'm tired of this "isn't humanity neat," bullshit. We're a virus with shoes."-Bill Hicks.
I feel the Bern and I need penicillin
Yeah, I'll debate them physically and verbally. I've got everything I need to fight these fuckers.
How can you debate with stupidity lol? We must actively fight fascism, not have bourgeois academic debates with them like a liberal would. I couldn't think of an even bigger waste of time than debating with those people. But if you want to waste your time, then go ahead.
"Traitors to Marxism-Leninism, agents of imperialism and intriguers like Josif Broz Tito, try in a thousand ways, by hatching up diabolic schemes like the creation of a third force, to mislead these people and the newly-set up states [in Africa and Asia], to detach them from their natural allies, to hitch them up to U.S. imperialism. We should exert all our efforts to defeat the schemes of these lackeys of imperialism"- Enver Hoxha
"Ours is a just cause; victory will be ours!" -Josef Stalin
APL USMLO CPC-ML PCMLV CPGB(ML) CIPOML
there are way more usefull things to do than debate with a white-supremacist, like playing computer games, reading a book, watching a good movie, watching bob ross paint a picture and so many more nice things you could do instead. i mean if you like to do that, if that is some kind of fun for you, id say good for you, but i had my share of racism, racist conspiracy theories and our race is the best bs in my life that i can live without it.
All i want is a Marxist Hunk.
It is true that labor produces for the rich wonderful things – but for the worker it produces privation. It produces palaces – but for the worker, hovels. It produces beauty – but for the worker, deformity. It replaces labor by machines, but it throws one section of the workers back into barbarous types of labor and it turns the other section into a machine. It produces intelligence – but for the worker, stupidity, cretinism.
Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!
A refusal to debate with someone is not necessarily an indication that one doesn't care about the matter up for debate. I've debated with white supremacists before, mainly online, though, because real-life encounters seldom allow for civility; rightfully so, too, I see no reason to show any respect for these fools. And really, debating with a racist -- much like debating with a theist or an atheist -- is ultimately an exercise in mental masturbation as it is highly unlikely either side will change the view of their opponent.
I wonder about the title of this thread, are you issuing a mandate that people must debate with white supremacists? If so, what gives you the right to mandate such a thing and why should anyone care? Personally, I prefer a more direct courses of action than verbal tit-for-tat.
Helping to do our part in financially crippling Stormfront would be a decent victory, at least in my opinion.
"c'mon guys we have to do something"
"why aren't you guys arguing on the internet more!? Don't you want to do something?"
I'm on some sickle-hammer shit
Collective Bruce Banner shit
FKA: #FF0000, AKA Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
I'm not sure whether this post is meant to criticize me or not, but nevertheless, I would like to point out that this is not about me, if any of you were getting that impression. I just feel that in terms of debating on Stormfront, there is the potential to get enough people to quit the site so that Stormfront's financial situation gets worse and worse. And even if you feel that agressive tactics are more useful in fighting fascism, it still wouldn't hurt to pursue both strategies. Intellectual debates and violence don't have to contradict one another. These options can still be pursued simultaneously. Now, it's definitely true that you're going to run into some real idiots on Stormfront. Not going to lie about that. However, the fact that there are so many idiots on Stormfront is precisely the reason I've been harping and moaning about using direct refutations in debates. It's much harder for our opponents to ignore arguments that are more direct and to the point. And even if they still try to ignore those arguments, that doesn't mean you should give up debating them. It just means that you keep repeating those arguments over and over and over and over. And then, if these white supremacists still ignore your arguments, just call them out on their ignorance. When all is said and done, if these idiots still don't budge on their beliefs, at least they'll make themselves look like fools to both their fellow white nationalists, and to lurkers. The possibilities are endless.
It has not been a waste of time. There are plenty of borderline white nationalists and white nationalist sympathizers who are willing to listen to anti-racist arguments. People like Japan1234, Fero, Ares88, and several others. These were people who quit Stormfront despite being somewhat extreme in their beliefs. I don't know the exact reasons for why they left Stormfront, but I would imagine that one of the reasons was that they were willing to listen to evidence and logic.
Actually, now that I think about it, I think I know why Japan1234 left. He was an East Asian supremacist that I sent a link to about how poor white boys had the worst test scores in Britain. Roughly a few days after he got the link, he left Stormfront. So I have reason to believe that sending him that link that I sent him caused him to reconsider his views about race and intelligence.
Last edited by the debater; 12th November 2013 at 18:08.
I do care about white supremacists, I hope a lot that they never go far politically again. But I think it's easier for me to bring people who aren't white supremacists round to my way of thinking so if I was going to debate to try and recruit I'd start with other people.
It would be cool to financially cripple Stormfront but I'm thinking people who donate to Stormfront would be even more white supremacist than is normal for a white supremacist so hard to persuade with rational debate. I think a skilled computer hacker would be able to do that job with less time used.
Also Internet debate bores me some, I take ideas from others but can seldom be bothered to join in. I've thought before that some of these Nazi posters on internet may well just be attention seeking.
I mean it's your free time you can do what you want, but if you haven't followed up with these users how can you take credit for changing their views? Maybe they stopped going to storm front for a million other reasons, maybe they were sick of debating with you?
Man is but a goat in the hands of butchers
I've been on the site due to being linked there a few times and it has just made me want my white skin to slough off. How can you stay long enough to know names and who is approachable?!
'debating' tends to become 'equally-incoherent-slurs-from-the-opposite-end-of-the-spectrum'. It seems like time better spent engaging in things outside. Reading things that oppose or criticise your current beliefs isn't a bad thing, it'll give you a better understanding and ability to critique. But people who've taken bullshit so much to heart aren't really worth your time. Because it's unlikely people come about these views all by themselves they're usually nurtured by other factors in their socialisation. You don't just wake up a white supremacist.
Pyotr Pavlensky nailed his scrotum to Red Square the other day...by the sounds of it people in this thread who are capable would rather do that than give Stormfront the traffic.
A couple of philosophers Mirabeau and Nietzsche claimed that people shouldn't get into irrelevant fights, worthless irrelevant battles, and spend their emotional, mental and nervous energies trying to fight against anybody like when somebody offends you, insults you and irrelevant stuff.
They claimed that if people offends you, you should even laugh at them. And only wage battles and wars that are important and relevant.
In the book 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene, it also says that it is a waste of time to help toxic, negative people. What would probably happen is that negative toxic people will drag you down to their negative world.
So having said this, my best tip to you is to dimiss, skip and evade all irrelevant conflicts, and verbal battles with toxic negative, ultra-right wing, libertarians anti-communism people. And save your precious time, energies, power and strength for the real batttle which is the coming class-war communist revolution
"Dad, how many pounds of potatoes does an american have to eat before he dies." -Matt Dillon, in a movie
I already think that Stormfront, in particular, get's it's regular raids, hacking, barrages of facts, evidences, logic, etc. but the thing is, it's not just a matter of introducing logical and reason into that cesspool, you still have to filter out all the shit, too, you know.
For some people, just like with any "extreme," political viewpoint or "group," based movements,wrap their whole identity into their politics, it is them, it's how they view and cope with the world and their present reality, it's their whole world-view and in some cases has been since childhood and it's being proposed I personally could change such a mental crisis via some debate on some internet discussion forum?
Not to mention, some of them are wrapped up in gangish shit irl involved with their stupidity, so they for obvious reasons can't just be like, "you know what, alright, that poster ComradeBroibalsan245 is right, this is dumb, I'm gonna tell the fellas," just for the simple fact that it wouldn't really be that easy.
But I do support any raids, hacking, trolling, fund-fucking, and or legitimate debate attempts by others, even if I'm rare to do it myself.
Come little children, I'll take thee away, into a land of enchantment, come little children, the times come to play, here in my garden of magic.
"I'm tired of this "isn't humanity neat," bullshit. We're a virus with shoes."-Bill Hicks.
I feel the Bern and I need penicillin
My brother Sinister: don't do that, it might even be dangerous for you. (Remember that people in USA are emotional, nervous etc. and people in America (not only ultra-right wingers) use guns and kill people even over a parking lot in a commercial store
And you won't overthrow the capitalist government by doing that, it won;'t lead to a radical change. Save your precious energies, health and mental clarity and well-being for the real war. The coming class war of leftists against the capitalist government and capitalist class
Just smile and laugh at fascists, save your health and life for the coming real class-war and real important revolution of leftists against the right-wing government which might take place around 2018 to 2020 in USA
.
"Dad, how many pounds of potatoes does an american have to eat before he dies." -Matt Dillon, in a movie
Naw American Nazis are the most docile of creatures. I'm not a big tuff guy but if you stand your ground against them they'll more likely back down than get into a fight, unless they're outnumbering you and attack you when you're not looking, or something.
lmao
I'm on some sickle-hammer shit
Collective Bruce Banner shit
FKA: #FF0000, AKA Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
Little to no interest in debate, personally. They've usually got no interest in changing their minds (or accepting anything that challenges a cosy, black and white (ugh... no pun intended) worldview) and I've got no interest in wasting my time and energy on people who will off-handedly dismiss everything I say - at best.
Careful, don't get too cavalier about this stuff. Some friends told me a story about an anarchist attempt to disrupt a neo-nazi meeting that went very poorly when a crew of skinny anarchists found themselves face-to-face with a posse of nasty muscle-bound bat-armed boneheads. One should plan carefully and exercise extreme caution when approaching physical confrontations - there's always a possibility for terrible consequences/surprises.
I don't mean that to shoot you down #FF0000, it's just a thing I'm wary of making light of without disclaimers.
As for the broader discussion, I think most of us probably debate with white supremacists every day, since white supremacy is a pillar of capitalism (at least in a settler-colonial context). I think it makes more sense to focus on these debates, with "everyday" racists, than to waste our words on the extremist fringe, who even if they "stop being white supremacists" will very likely never be committed anti-racists. Rather, winning "everyday" people to anti-racist and anti-colonial politics is a much better strategy for fighting white supremacy generally.
The life we have conferred upon these objects confronts us as something hostile and alien.
Formerly Virgin Molotov Cocktail (11/10/2004 - 21/08/2013)
