On one hand the posturing in this thread is hella lame but on the other, how many people do you think these fascists have done serious harm to in their lives?
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Of course it's tragic. It's tragic that someone lives a life of hate and dies because of it, how is that anything but tragic?
Bourgeois state*
pew pew pew
On one hand the posturing in this thread is hella lame but on the other, how many people do you think these fascists have done serious harm to in their lives?
I'm on some sickle-hammer shit
Collective Bruce Banner shit
FKA: #FF0000, AKA Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
What 'posturing' is going on in this thread? People expressing the fact that they show no remorse for a couple of nazi savages who go around murdering and terrorising migrants (and accuse said migrants of murder and terror, ironically)?
That's not posturing. That's stating a view on a topic. I could say that the majority of the people lauding this as 'tragic' are reprehensible fucking idiots who are posturing as the 'neutral sea' in which far-right boneheads, who belong to an organisation known for the murder, abuse and pressure of migrants, participation in the sex slave industry, the oppression of non-heterosexual people and thick connections to both the police and the previous neo-nazi military junta that destroyed Greeces' communist movement, somehow deserve to be mourned after getting shot.
Tell me, do you shits think a member of the pre third-reich SA, who terrorized jewish neighborhoods and spread racist insanity, should have been mourned if some smart-minded individual ended them with a round of bullets? Didn't think so.
I don't think you understand what 'tragic' is, or at least not how it's used here in this thread. For instance, with the Boston bombings the younger perpetrator was a seemingly normal guy like you and me, listening to rock and pop, smoking weed, and then his older brother dragged him into a spiral of hatred. If the younger brother had been shot and killed, he would have deserved to be shot and killed, but it would still be tragic that his life had become a spiral of hatred culminating in the death of three innocent people. That's why it's tragic. Deserving to die and it being tragic are not mutually exclusive.
Similarly, the guys shot were not somehow genetically fascist, they were people like you and me, whom had made the awful choice of a life of hatred, and it's tragic that this was all their life was. I don't mourn the death of fascists one bit, but I do consider it tragic they had to die this way.
pew pew pew
i'm generally wary of anyone who celebrates murder with too much glee even when it is a couple of nazis, though i would be lying if i said the headline didn't bring a smirk to my face. i think it is important to examine this critically though because at this point i don't think it serves much purpose to go around blowing away individual nazis in isolation. our war is not a traditional war measured in force of arms and it is more important to build a counterpoint to the nazis in the streets and prevent their provocations rather than simply assassinate them. right now i think it is important to expose the falsehood of the state publicly trying to be 'antifascist,' in 'taking down' this party it has fostered for years, which a hail of lead does with little effect.
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
What bores me is people who try to shame others into believing that their opinion is morally wrong not because it's counter-productive or because it misses the point but because "no revolutionary should celebrate the death of a human being" and because the way they reacted to a news item is "bullshit macho hardman posturing." After everything that Golden Dawn members have done that outraged and disgusted people here, you can't blame people for engaging in a little schadenfreude - okay, a lot of schadenfreude - because of it. I'm not judging the comments themselves for outright bourgeois moralism - I don't even disagree with the statement that "each and every death is a tragedy." What is bourgeois moralism is attacking people for their reactions to and opinions of an attack on professed reactionaries, not because of any objective effect those reactions and opinions have but because of your desire to push your own morals onto them.
"to become a philosopher, start by walking very slowly"
Out of interest, on what basis is "every death a tragedy"?
The argument could be made that in a perfect world (i.e. equitable distribution of resources, i.e. the closest to a perfect world we can get) these people would have been raised in a better environment and therefore wouldn't have made the life choices that led them to the time and place where they got killed. The tragedy, then, would be that we don't live in a perfect world. I don't think it's an argument for pacifism, just something to keep people grounded in times of violence.
"to become a philosopher, start by walking very slowly"
Its incredible how stupid you people are. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
With that execution, GD got back in the political game. Now they have martyrs to show.Now they can regroup their people on the street again,after they were completely vanished during the last month. And now, the ideology of equating the Left with the extreme right has something fresh to show. If that is not a State's provocation, I cannot imagine what can be.
Stop acting based on your emotions you fuckin idiots. Start using the brain nature gave you. The fact that they were nazi scums doesnt make their execution by some asshole desperandos a help to our cause.
Sure it does, if you don't think too hard about it. In Vox Populli's defense, she was just "lazy and high and didn't feel like getting into all of that" so I'm not sure what the excuse is for all the other critical thinking going on in this thread. It is too early to know too many details about what happened, but it sure as hell wasn't revolutionary.
The perspective that I have from the US is that this is about the political equivalent to shooting up a Tea Party rally. It's just a resounding win for the State who can use it as an excuse to further crack down on social out-groups and continue to entrench their rule. Already the Greek police are making noises about the killers being from an "anti-establishment far-left group" As you said, it also creates a martyr for GD and paints them as victims.
I think it says a lot about the left that we can be reduced to gravedancing and spittle slinging at the mere mention that members of some amorphous enemy were "punished", regardless of why or by whom or what the ultimate consequences for leftists in Greece will be. And another thing, when Pavlos Fyssas was murdered the Scumfront community wasn't this thrilled. Great Job.
It seems to me like you feel sorry for GD or is it just the overt liberalism. Leftists in Greece are fully capable of defending themselves from GD. It doesn't matter what the scenario is, the Greek Bourgeoisie will always try to glorify the Fascists. We should welcome this event and hope that more people try to get these murdering Fascist thugs off the streets of Greece.
"Traitors to Marxism-Leninism, agents of imperialism and intriguers like Josif Broz Tito, try in a thousand ways, by hatching up diabolic schemes like the creation of a third force, to mislead these people and the newly-set up states [in Africa and Asia], to detach them from their natural allies, to hitch them up to U.S. imperialism. We should exert all our efforts to defeat the schemes of these lackeys of imperialism"- Enver Hoxha
"Ours is a just cause; victory will be ours!" -Josef Stalin
APL USMLO CPC-ML PCMLV CPGB(ML) CIPOML
I don't really understand this reasoning, to be honest.
I don't really know that many Tea Party members who go out and kill or harass Greek citizens, or are actually any real threat to large swathes of people. To compare the GD to the Tea Party is to severely downplay the differences between the two groups.
Are you hoping that one day the state won't "crack down on social out-groups and continue to entrench their rule"? It seems pretty unlikely that the state will ever come around to our point of view. Is the characterization of the killers as "anti-establishment far-left" members really that unbelievable? Would you expect anything else of the police, especially in Greece?
I'm not entirely sure where you get the idea that the GD won't always be favored over "far-left anti-establishment groups", especially by the police, and to perhaps a lesser extent, the state. If it weren't for martyrs, it would have been something else. While I'm not going to argue that the killing of these two was particularly productive, I wouldn't really argue that sitting around and waiting for the state or the police to come around to your point of view is, either.
I wouldn't really call the GD "some amorphous enemy". Like the comparison to the Tea Party, it downplays a lot of what the GD is. I don't know whether this was intentional or not on your part. I don't see any good outcomes for leftists in Greece, regardless of whether it's a 'revolutionary situation' or not.
I'm not sure what your point about Scumfront was supposed to be.
To just reiterate some of what I said above, I'm not defending the killings, I just think it's really... odd, especially the reasoning some here use to justify it, to attack the killings themselves.
In our defense, they didn't have something like the murder of Pavlos Fyssas to motivate them.
"to become a philosopher, start by walking very slowly"
Political retribution is perfectly justified.
If you revolutionaries were doing your jobs properly and winning arguments there would be no negative backlash from the execution of two Nazis.
The consequences on "leftists" by the state as a result of this is par for the course of struggle against capital, fascism and the state. This is what happens when you confront structures of power and domination. Why are you so surprised? But more importantly, why is confrontation with these structures of power and domination not something you actively seek?
Your response to it is organise and defend yourselves. Instead of whining about people taking matters into their own hands, why don't you better prepare yourself for the confrontations with the state that will come as a result of their repressive measures -- repressive measures that will come irrespective of whether these two Nazis died or not.
lol, you really think the Greek state's shoddy excuse for a "look at us crack down on the far right menace" posturing was anything but a publicity stunt, railing in its rabid dog for the time being? Do you really for a second believe that GD would have been eliminated if not for this 'desperado act'? That is, aside from the fact that this robs leftists of the statisfaction of claiming the moral high ground of being the perpetual victim, which seems to suit most just fine.
You assume there's a common cause between the perpetrators of this act (who could be located outside of the political milieu for all we know, given GD's tight connections to the criminal sphere) and you. Or a common cause between everybody on this forum.
"Of Man's first disobedience, and the fruit
Of that forbidden tree..."
- John Milton -
"The place of the worst barbarism is that modern forest that makes use of us, this forest of chimneys and bayonets, machines and weapons, of strange inanimate beasts that feed on human flesh"
- Amadeo Bordiga
Can we make this not in another sectarian shit fest, keep it on toppic or I'm going to trash and infract....
Verbal warnings all around.
The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. What matter where, if I be still the same, And what I should be, all but less than he Whom thunder hath made greater?
Here at least We shall be free
Ok, I trashed every sectarian flame, infraction to reb for this one though.
The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. What matter where, if I be still the same, And what I should be, all but less than he Whom thunder hath made greater?
Here at least We shall be free
