Anti-White Hate Groups

[Bolshevik Sickle]

If there is one thing about hate and racism, is that there will always be sinister people on both sides. Hate is very contagious, but it is not incurable.

• The New Black Panthers makes it pretty clear they have a strong hatred for white people, and will not hesitate to take white life.
• New Black Panthers call for a race war against all whites in heat of the Zimmerman case.

I am no fan of racism FROM or AGAINST anybody. It is important to fight anti-white and anti-non-white racism at the same time, otherwise, it's pure hypocrisy.

Racism (as defined by MerriamWebster.com)

• a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
• racial prejudice or discrimination

__________________________________________________ __________
Amerindian/Mestizo Supremacists

• Chicano Nationalist in the Southern United States also make it clear that they have a sense of anti-white hatred and xenophobia. Which is hypocritically to say the least.

• American Neo-Nazis confront Brown Berets, both of whom are racist and chauvinistic.

• Mexican immigrants show their frustration towards Anti-Mexican racism, however, the Brown Berets only fight the hate with more hate. Fighting fire with fire only makes the fire bigger.

Video of yet again combating Nationalism with Nationalism (Hate with Hate), which does not help at all.

Can they be considered Fascist?

Fascism

1. a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2. a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

From Merriam Webster

Fascism in simple terms - Wikipedia

Yes!!

If we are anti-fascist and anti-racist, then we must combat fascism and racism from or against anybody.

Waving Flags: What's appropriate and what is not.

[synthesis]

But it is important to fight anti-white and anti-non-white racism at the same time

No it's not.

Why do you care who white racists choose to blame for their reactionary idiocy?

[Bolshevik Sickle]

No it's not.

Why do you care who white racists choose to blame for their reactionary idiocy?

No, I still want to combat hate-mongering groups like the NSM, and other Neo-Nazi groups in the USA/Europe.

[Zealot]

I almost shed a tear...

Not.

Anti-white racism is in no way a threat that we should expend resources to combat. Maybe they're fed up with white racists, concluded that whites are naturally incapable of having an intelligent conversation, and have decided to be racists themselves? Whatever the case, they should be no concern for anti-fascists.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

I almost shed a tear...

Not.

Anti-white racism is in no way a threat that we should expend resources to combat. Maybe they're fed up with white racists, concluded that whites are naturally incapable of having an intelligent conversation, and have decided to be racists themselves? Whatever the case, they should be no concern for anti-fascists.

I don't mean combat as in getting militant action, I'm just saying it should be condemned. You should not respond to hate and xenophobia with more hate and xenophobia. Of course you do have a point, anti-white racism is not that much of a threat, but it should still be looked at.

[#FF0000]

Of course you do have a point, anti-white racism is not that much of a threat, but it should still be looked at.

Naw, because it exists in one form: a group of dumb weirdos who no one cares about and who are entirely irrelevant. I extend this to "neo-nazi" groups too, generally, but the unfortunate reality is that those hate groups actually have a slight shred of legitimacy in comparison to groups like the NBPP, and certainly have more power, and are part of a loose worldwide network of fascist organizations.

The NBPP, the Black Israelites, etc. are side-show oddities by comparison. Yeah, what they say is wrong and odious in a lot of ways, but it doesn't actually hurt anyone. They don't have the capacity to do that.

EDIT: Oh hey, look at all those guests hovering over this topic.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

EDIT: Oh hey, look at all those guests hovering over this topic.

Makes you wonder.

[Lobotomy]

What white person actually gets their feelings hurt by this shit?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't think we should equate these two - related phenomena - or call seperatism or nationalism of this sort "racism" - at least not confuse it with the systemic racism that is a huge factor in maintaining the current class system.

The problems of the sort of nationalism that you are describing in terms of class struggle is that it is divisive in a class sense and ultimately is a dead end on it's own terms (ending white supremacy and oppression of X or Y group).

The way white supremacist groups and black nationalism of this sort are related is because they are responces to the much more fundamental and concrete systemic racism and racial inequalities of the system. However, it's the goal of white supremacists to defend or extend this inequality and oppression whereas black nationalism in all its forms emerges as part of a desire or effort to end or get away from that systemic racial oppression.

Marxist/Anarchist Revolutionaries should be in political competition with the ideas of these kinds nationalism and when possible try and create and push for more effective strategies based out of our understanding of how the capitalist system and oppression are linked. We agree with them that systemic racism should be smashed and the oppression of black people ended, but nationalism can not deliver that ultimately and the kinds of nationalism that blame white people abstractly for racism without any class understanding will ultimately be a dead end. White nationalists, however, seek to defend and bolster a state of affairs that we want to smash - we are not in competition with them, we are in direct opposition.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

While I do agree that these groups should be combatted (fuck the idiots in this thread who call these people 'misguided'. They're just as racist and insane as your usual nazi - black separatists included), the problem is that these groups are absolutely marginal compared to the massive number of supported, well funded hate groups that dot the western world. These racists are also propped up by the white American social atmosphere, in which african americans and other 'people of colour' suffer an enormous amount of discrimination (I read somewhere that a 1970s study concluded that many African-american children developed mental health problems associated with self-worth after only a few years at school in America, and they pinned the cause on racial discrimination). Also, a lot of those political motives of said marginal and miniscule groups you mentioned are actually used in faulty reasoning by nativist cockheads who try and demonize mesoamerican migrants. I'd bet that you can't get very far in the US' south without hearing some hysterical whitey screaming something to the effect of "THE HISPANICS ARE COMING! THE HISPANICS ARE COMING!'

I highly suggest the OP checks out this website to get in the know on hategroups in the US.


Also, to all the ignorant dickbags here who are still denying that human beings african-american political groups have ever been ultra-racist cult shitholes, I'd advise you to take a look at some of the shit Farrakhan, Khalid and others spewed about Hitler, the third reich and jews:

"The Jews don't like Farrakhan, so they call me Hitler. Well, that's a good name. Hitler was a very great man. He wasn't a great man for me as a black person, but he was a great German. Now, I'm not proud of Hitler's evils against Jewish people, but that's a matter of record. He raised Germany up from nothing. Well, in a sense you could say there's a similarity in that we are raising our people up from nothing."
— Louis Farrakhan, radio interview, March 11, 1984

"Jews have been conclusively linked to the greatest criminal endeavor ever undertaken against an entire race of people … the black African Holocaust. … The effects of this unspeakable tragedy are still being felt among the peoples of the world at this very hour."
— The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews (NOI book), 1991

"Who are the slumlords in the Black community? The so-called Jews. … Who is it sucking our blood in the Black community? A white imposter Arab and a white imposter Jew."
— Speech by NOI national official Khalid Muhammad, Nov. 29, 1993

"These false Jews promote the filth of Hollywood that is seeding the American people and the people of the world and bringing you down in moral strength. … It's the wicked Jews, the false Jews, that are promoting lesbianism, homosexuality. It's the wicked Jews, false Jews, that make it a crime for you to preach the word of God, then they call you homophobic!"
— Louis Farrakhan, Saviours' Day speech, Feb. 26, 2006

[synthesis]

I think most Americans who have been involved in radical politics are aware of the SPLC. Anyway, I feel like groups like those mentioned in the OP take on "supremacist"/nationalist rhetoric because it's what they see as working for whites. So I think it's perfectly valid to call them "misguided," because at some level they're trying to counteract discrimination against their ethnic group, yet given that most of them are from places where racist discrimination is the worst, they've picked up on a shitty way to do that. Personally, I think it's counterproductive for white people to tell black and Latino people what they can and can't do politically, rather than just promote working class politics, but I guess that's a matter of opinion.

[Per Levy]

Anyway, I feel like groups like those mentioned in the OP take on "supremacist"/nationalist rhetoric because it's what they see as working for whites. So I think it's perfectly valid to call them "misguided," because at some level they're trying to counteract discrimination against their ethnic group, yet given that most of them are from places where racist discrimination is the worst, they've picked up on a shitty way to do that.

i very much agree with that, to me as a non-american it seems to me these groups are a reaction to the racism many people encounter every day. even though, i see it this way, that with pretty much copying white supremacy they arnt fighting it they enforce it, instead of combating racism they help to keep the status quo. anyway, i do agree that these groups are just to small and unlike nazi groups hardly hurt anyone to be much of a concern.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

The principle of any group, or even an individual, expressing hatred towards others on something as flimsy as race / creed etc is completely abhorent.
However, the 'anti-white' are only offensive, in my view, in a very limited sense and are not a direct threat to anyone. They can shout and 'preach' etc and cause annoyance but they are not in the same league as the groups and individuals who have repeatedly, for many years, targeted non-whites (from lynchings to workplace taunts and everything in-between). Their ideas / beliefs are not backed by overt state oppression or common-place attitudes towards perceived minorities.
Also, as Louis CK once said in a bit, 'I'm a white man; you can't even hurt my feelings!'

[Jimmie Higgins]

Also, to all the ignorant dickbags here who are still denying that human beings african-american political groups have ever been ultra-racist cult shitholes, I'd advise you to take a look at some of the shit Farrakhan, Khalid and others spewed about Hitler, the third reich and jews:

Is that a debate here? Bigotry or even ractionary ideas by specific black nationalists is not really the question imo. Garvey (though the movement vasselated) even claimed that Mussolini stole the idea of fascism from his movement at one point!

But to make an equivalency between people who want to defend systemic racism and people whose reaction to that systemic racism is to blame all white people is incorrect and leaves an understanding of this politics at a superficial level. So in terms of ideas in isolation from social realities, politics that claim that black people are superior to whites don't seem very different than politics that claim white people are superior to blacks. But in the context of a society where black people are systemically oppressed and endure an inferior social position to whites in general these politics occupy very different places.

The problems with blaming all white people for racism are more that it is a misunderstanding of where racism comes from in society, how it functions, and therefore what to do about it. In general nationalism by oppressed people (in a bigoted form or not) is problematic because it is a cross-class dynamic (a result of common oppression of, in this case, both black middle class people and black working class people). Generally it's middle class, not working class, concerns about oppression that "lead" these tendencies or groups but the appeal of fighting white supremacy attracts workers as well. So blaming all white people, rather than seeing the connection to capitalism and the need to keep people down and control populations and divide the working class, takes capitalism out of the equation -- and therefore black nationalists often argue for building up "black capitalism" as a counter to poverty and marginalization of black workers.

This middle-class issue is much more common among various black nationalist tradditions than black supremacy or bigotry is, and it's the bigger challenge for revolutionaries to try and counter and develop class-based organization and politics among oppressed groups.

[synthesis]

The problems with blaming all white people for racism are more that it is a misunderstanding of where racism comes from in society, how it functions, and therefore what to do about it. In general nationalism by oppressed people (in a bigoted form or not) is problematic because it is a cross-class dynamic (a result of common oppression of, in this case, both black middle class people and black working class people). Generally it's middle class, not working class, concerns about oppression that "lead" these tendencies or groups but the appeal of fighting white supremacy attracts workers as well. So blaming all white people, rather than seeing the connection to capitalism and the need to keep people down and control populations and divide the working class, takes capitalism out of the equation -- and therefore black nationalists often argue for building up "black capitalism" as a counter to poverty and marginalization of black workers.

Fully agree. The real problem for socialists isn't that they are "racist against white people" - and I'd argue that they are so insignificant that they're not really even "dividing the working class" as a whole - it's that they attempt to tie in the interests of the black and Latino working class with those of their respective bourgeoisies.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Is that a debate here? Bigotry or even ractionary ideas by specific black nationalists is not really the question imo. Garvey (though the movement vasselated) even claimed that Mussolini stole the idea of fascism from his movement at one point!

But to make an equivalency between people who want to defend systemic racism and people whose reaction to that systemic racism is to blame all white people is incorrect and leaves an understanding of this politics at a superficial level. So in terms of ideas in isolation from social realities, politics that claim that black people are superior to whites don't seem very different than politics that claim white people are superior to blacks. But in the context of a society where black people are systemically oppressed and endure an inferior social position to whites in general these politics occupy very different places.

I'm sorry - is this a defense of racial supremacy? Sorry buddy, but ethnic supremacism is reactionary and repulsive beyond belief no matter how you slice it. I honestly do not understand how not whitewashing racist groups means that I am apparently unaware of systematic racism suffered by African-Americans in the US and it's history of development (hint: I'm not).

I think the point here is this: what are you trying to imply from this?:

So in terms of ideas in isolation from social realities, politics that claim that black people are superior to whites don't seem very different than politics that claim white people are superior to blacks. But in the context of a society where black people are systemically oppressed and endure an inferior social position to whites in general these politics occupy very different places.

Is this supposed to be some kind of levy or adequate defense of these reactionary groups? Then I'm sorry, but beyond how powerful these groups are and where they spawn from, I can observe no major difference in their disgusting politics. As I already knew all of this information beforehand, I wonder what you are trying to prove here? That people who participate in black supremacist groups are just 'misguided individuals' and their political organisations should not be attacked? What ridiculous apologism.

Protip: Most hardcore islamist groups operating in the horn of Africa, sahel and the sahara do so through the form of islamic schools, where homeless children and/or orphans are invited in, given a place to stay and food to eat, and are made to study the Quran every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year. Give about a decade and the islamist pigs are offered up freshly brainwashed soldiers who have been doped under the guise of goodwill into becoming fundamentalist killing machines. While this is a truly heart rending phenomenon and can only be truly combatted by focusing on the social and economic source of said tragedy, at the end of the day you still have a bunch of insane, murderous al-shabaab recruits.

The problems with blaming all white people for racism are more that it is a misunderstanding of where racism comes from in society, how it functions, and therefore what to do about it. In general nationalism by oppressed people (in a bigoted form or not) is problematic because it is a cross-class dynamic (a result of common oppression of, in this case, both black middle class people and black working class people). Generally it's middle class, not working class, concerns about oppression that "lead" these tendencies or groups but the appeal of fighting white supremacy attracts workers as well. So blaming all white people, rather than seeing the connection to capitalism and the need to keep people down and control populations and divide the working class, takes capitalism out of the equation -- and therefore black nationalists often argue for building up "black capitalism" as a counter to poverty and marginalization of black workers.

This middle-class issue is much more common among various black nationalist tradditions than black supremacy or bigotry is, and it's the bigger challenge for revolutionaries to try and counter and develop class-based organization and politics among oppressed groups.

This had nothing to do with my post, and I claimed none of this - you seem to be reading off whatever you thought my post implied. All I made clear is that I don't look at racist fuckwads with soppy eyes just because they are of an ethnic group on the receiving end of institutional racism, unlike some other sellout leftists in this thread.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Fully agree. The real problem for socialists isn't that they are "racist against white people" - and I'd argue that they are so insignificant that they're not really even "dividing the working class" as a whole - it's that they attempt to tie in the interests of the black and Latino working class with those of their respective bourgeoisies.

Yeah if you look at the NOI, for example, their personal moral codes are like puritain work-ethic and the male-dominated nuclear family, their structures are often based around petite-bourgois enterprises. Without a working class based alternative or movement, this has an appeal to many workers because families get all dysfuntional (and that's a main default area of support) and our lives are chaoitic -- and for black workers who face job discrimination they think that black bosses might actually hire them and maybe treat them better (of course this is not true in general - at least outside of specifcally nationalist-oriented businesses).

On the "divide the working class" I think you're right, maybe divissive is better. Society is already divided but black nationalists who take a strong hostile stance against non-blacks are at least accomodating to these divides if they agree that, for example, jews and blacks or blacks and latinos are in competition.

This had nothing to do with my post, and I claimed none of this - you seem to be reading off whatever you thought my post implied.

I'm sorry - don't take it personally as I did not mean to suggest that you were making that argument - it was a general point on the issue to try and broaden it out. I quoted you and agreed that in terms of ideas of this sort of nationalism can be quite repugnent. But that I think it's wrong to equate it with white supremacy because of the different social dynamics involved (i.e. supporting white supremacy like racists or reacting against it in a dead-end way like black nationalists) and there are different problems in terms of practice too. To put simply, again, I think the necissary approach as I see it shows the difference: white supremacists require hulk-like smahsing; black seperatists/supremacists require out-organizing and building a working class alternative to fighting racism.

Is this supposed to be some kind of levy or adequate defense of these reactionary groups? Then I'm sorry, but beyond how powerful these groups are and where they spawn from, I can observe no major difference in their disgusting politics. As I already knew all of this information beforehand, I wonder what you are trying to prove here? That people who participate in black supremacist groups are just 'misguided individuals' and their political organisations should not be attacked? What ridiculous apologism.

I think it would be ridiculous and an accomodation to the dominant post-racial racism in the US (that excuses white supremacy by arguing that racism=bigotry and is an induvidual matter, not a structural and social issue) for groups of multi-ethinc (but mostly white probably) radicals to go out and treat ("attack") a black seperatist group like we would a neo-nazi group. First, often nazis rally as a public show to try and initimidate people, whereas black seperatists organize within black communities and don't go to white suburbs to initimidate white people (because they would be arrested on the spot). Secondly, and again, I think the thing is that we are in competition with these ideas of how to end the condition of oppression. We are not in competition with white supremacists about how best to manage a racial caste system in the US. We are in direct conflict and opposition to them.

This doesn't mean we should aim to try and recruit black seperatists or accomodate to them (I doubt they would have any interest in listening to a multi-ethnic group) but we are competing in communities over what is the best way to deal with (and end) racial oppression.

Protip: Most hardcore islamist groups operating in the horn of Africa, sahel and the sahara do so through the form of islamic schools, where homeless children and/or orphans are invited in, given a place to stay and food to eat, and are made to study the Quran every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year. Give about a decade and the islamist pigs are offered up freshly brainwashed soldiers who have been doped under the guise of goodwill into becoming fundamentalist killing machines. While this is a truly heart rending phenomenon and can only be truly combatted by focusing on the social and economic source of said tragedy, at the end of the day you still have a bunch of insane, murderous al-shabaab recruits.

I am trying to learn more about Africa because I really only know bits and pieces of various modern histories there, so I don't know enough about specific social and political contexts there to even guess how African revolutionairies might best respond or deal with these tendencies or groups. I am only confident to speak to the US situation in regards to the specific question of North American Black Nationalism and more specifically black seperatism.

Since I think these ideologies are a dead-end in terms of actually combating white supremacy in US society, I don't think there is any chance of a black ruling class emerging and systematically oppressing white people or training "killing machines" - the US military turns many more black (and other) workers into killing machines. I might as well worry about Sharia law being implemented in Kansas or wherever it was that they passed a law banning it.

I'm sorry - is this a defense of racial supremacy?

No, it was an attempt to put black nationalism and then more specifically ideas of black superiority into the social context as I see it. White supremacy can also be put into a context: the ruling class needs to control the laboring population (and in the US control of the black population has been there from early-on in a series of different ways); the middle class because they have some local power but not power over the system tend to want to control the behavior of workers and the poor to make their lives and livelyhoods more stable and secure; because of economic competition for jobs in capitalism, some white workers see more immediate benifit in trying to maintain a racial order where they have it slightly better in terms of job access etc, than other groups of workers. It doesn't mean I'm apologizing for white racists.

[the debater]

It is important to fight anti-white and anti-non-white racism at the same time, otherwise, it's pure hypocrisy.

Agreed. I don't think we should necessarily view the NOI or the Black Panthers as allies simply because we have a common enemy in white supremacists. Fascists, Zionists, Black Panthers, any and all racist groups should be opposed.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Agreed. I don't think we should necessarily view the NOI or the Black Panthers as allies simply because we have a common enemy in white supremacists. Fascists, Zionists, Black Panthers, any and all racist groups should be opposed.

You mean the New Black Panther Party, right?

Ironically the NOI didn't oppose white supremacists and in the early 60s basically said they were "truthful" white people and counter-posed them to white liberals (who were correctly identified as giving lip service to the problems of black oppression). The overlap is NOT in them being against white supremacist groups or racist white induviduals, the overlap is that they offer an ALTERNATE explanation and prescription for systemic racism in the US (capitalist) system to oppressed people. That says to me that we are organizationally and ideologically in competition with them in terms of fighting systemic racism - prisons, police brutality, systemic under-employment, disenfranchisement, etc.

The NOI and New Black Panthers aren't allies, though some times we may have to figure out how to negotiate and compete with them in movements. Just to give one example, the NOI (who are generally apolitical) was involved in coalitions around protesting a police murder.

How would we oppose them "like all racist groups"? While they are saying white anti-racists just use blacks for their own ends and tell them what to do and ultimately betray them (and there's real history behind this from liberals and famously the CP), multi-racial left groups should surround them on the street corner where they are organizing or rallying and shout them down, physically confront them? Who'd need the KKK to intimidate black folks from organizing if that's the sort of left we had? It would validate their arguments and isolate the multi-racial radicals!

But if the KKK was holding a rally, I think we should surround them, shout them down, and try and chase them away if possible.

[Aleister Granger]

http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/forum.php
Black supremacy dominates here

Yt's, read at your own discretion!