Anti-White Hate Groups

[the debater]

http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/forum.php
Black supremacy dominates here

Yt's, read at your own discretion!

I've actually skimmed through this forum. It's about as crazy as Stormfront.

[the debater]

Stop. Please. For the love of god, please fucking stop.

Surely you don't believe that there are no racist blacks in the U.S. using this type of language? There are a lot of problems facing black Americans, but institutionalized racism is not necessarily one of those problems in the 21st century. More important issues to worry about when it comes to the black community in America are issues like profane rap culture, black on black crime rates, the instability of black families, drug issues, and similar others. Institutionalized segregation is no longer the issue it once was.

[#FF0000]

words

deep sigh

edit: wait a fucking minute

There are a lot of problems facing black Americans, but institutionalized racism is not necessarily one of those problems in the 21st century. More important issues to worry about when it comes to the black community in America are issues like profane rap culture, black on black crime rates, the instability of black families, drug issues, and similar others. Institutionalized segregation is no longer the issue it once was.

Haha hooooly shit.

Listen I'm gonna go return some library books and then I'm gonna come back to this. This is industrial grade bullshit.

[Aleister Granger]

Surely you don't believe that there are no racist blacks in the U.S. using this type of language? There are a lot of problems facing black Americans, but institutionalized racism is not necessarily one of those problems in the 21st century. More important issues to worry about when it comes to the black community in America are issues like profane rap culture, black on black crime rates, the instability of black families, drug issues, and similar others. Institutionalized segregation is no longer the issue it once was.

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.... Um......
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[synthesis]

I think "the debater" has been spending a little too much time on whatever Stormfront's equivalent of OI is.

[tachosomoza]

I think Alester and the debater are conservatives who need to be exiled to the peanut gallery.

[Jimmie Higgins]

There are a lot of problems facing black Americans, but institutionalized racism is not necessarily one of those problems in the 21st century.

More black people in prison system today than were held in slavery in 1850. No, no problem with institutionalized racism... just a huge chunk of one race institutionalized.

More important issues to worry about when it comes to the black community in America are issues like profane rap culture, black on black crime rates, the instability of black families, drug issues, and similar others. Institutionalized segregation is no longer the issue it once was.

Schools have recently become just as segregated as they had been under Jim Crow. But segregation and segregation laws are no longer an official function of racism, now it is mainly through the massive repressive apparatus of the police and courts. Jim Crow was used to control the black laboring population in agricultural areas. Northern segregation helped divide the labor force (which was also true for white ethnic immigrants and Asians at various points) and to maintain and control a 2nd class labor pool. In the neoliberal era, "color-blind" racism or "the New Jim Crow" is based around maintaining surplus labor which means that as blue collar jobs moved or changed in urban areas and capitalism restructured, blacks (due to housing discrimination) couldn't follow the jobs to the suburbs as quickly and ate the brunt of neoliberal lean-ness.

Racial oppression in general, but specifically of black folks, is a huge weight around the neck of the entire working class.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Have you been to America? From what I've gathered, there's this mindset that only whites can truly be "racist" and everyone else who uses racial epithets "are not being serious about it." Some people even say it's 'cute' to hear when non-whites racially hate other non-whites, but 'wrong' when it's white on nonwhite.
That's what I've gathered. I think more people than we're willing to admit believe only white people can have racial prejudices, mainly because they're not willing to think, or are so brainwashed by the liberal media into accepting white liberal doctrines.

Then again this is America we're talking about. America is so, so, so backwards compared to other 1st world countries that I can't even laugh about it. Somedays I don't think America was an experiment but a joke.

Well I think the important distinction is if someone means "racist" in the sense of having bigoted ideas about anyone, or if they mean "racist" as in someone who supports a system of racial oppression. I don't think any black person can be racist in this second sense unless they are supporting jim-crow or harsher policing of black people. So now that I think about it, there can be "black racists" in that sense. But bigotry, or the individual attitudes of someone... yeah anyone can hate any group irrationally (or with some anecdotal reasons or whatnot).

So some extreeeemly PC people might believe there are no black bigots, but they just aren't familiar with US society in general then - people are so alienated and frustrated that you can find someone who hates just about anything if you look hard enough. There's someone right now who's probably cursing to himself saying, "God damn postal workers.... getting to wear SHORTS on the JOB! I don't get to do that. Those entitled moochers of knee tans!"

But really that's not the dominant sentiment about race in the US imo. In fact I think it's quite the opposite. Color-blindness is probably the biggest attitude about race currently among white people (and many blacks... though annecdotally, I feel like the economic crisis and demoralization about Obama may have changed that). Color-blind or post-racial ideas are what legally allow systemic racism (to proove racial profiling, you have to have evidence of a cop explicitly saying he's arresting people only because of his race), but as a general attitude it acts to just excuse and ignore racial inequalities in the US. This is why I think the distinction between someone having a racist attitude is different from systemic racism. Anyone can be a bigot, but hating people with mustaches doesn't aid the systemic oppression of Tom Selleck... because no such systemic oppression exists.

Think about it this way. If workers say: "I hate my boss" it doesn't matter. If a boss says: "I hate my workers" well the workers better start sending out resumes. Obviously not all white people are like "bosses" of oppressed people, but the point is that a black bigot is just some guy with a bad attitude, but white racism helps support a whole system with real power over the lives of black people.... which in turn increases the power of the ruling class and makes us all less powerful.

[the debater]

I think "the debater" has been spending a little too much time on whatever Stormfront's equivalent of OI is.

Okay my mistake. When I was thinking institutionalized racism, I was thinking about segregation, not about the prison-industrial complex. My mistake. I just minced terminologies.

[the debater]

I think Alester and the debater are conservatives who need to be exiled to the peanut gallery.

All the time and effort I put into that Refutations thread, and this is the thanks I get? Has anyone here actually put more effort into online-debating than myself? I hate to go on the defensive, but apparently I have no choice but to go over my positions:

I am:

-pro gay marriage
-pro choice
-pro libertarian socialism
-pro separation of church and state
-pro taxing the rich, pro public education, pro union, etc, etc
-pro gun regulations, in the sense that I believe guns should be legal, but strictly regulated

Yes, I admit I'm not 100% liberal. But there's nothing wrong with that. If anything, it means that I'm a more complex thinker relatively speaking, no offense towards anyone. And once again, when I was referring to institutionalized racism, I was referring to enforced racial segregation in schools and restaurants.

[the debater]

deep sigh

edit: wait a fucking minute



Haha hooooly shit.

Listen I'm gonna go return some library books and then I'm gonna come back to this. This is industrial grade bullshit.

How much success have you had debating with white supremacists?

[synthesis]

All the time and effort I put into that Refutations thread, and this is the thanks I get? Has anyone here actually put more effort into online-debating than myself? I hate to go on the defensive, but apparently I have no choice but to go over my positions:

I am:

-pro gay marriage
-pro choice
-pro libertarian socialism
-pro separation of church and state
-pro taxing the rich, pro public education, pro union, etc, etc
-pro gun regulations, in the sense that I believe guns should be legal, but strictly regulated

Yes, I admit I'm not 100% liberal. But there's nothing wrong with that. If anything, it means that I'm a more complex thinker relatively speaking, no offense towards anyone. And once again, when I was referring to institutionalized racism, I was referring to enforced racial segregation in schools and restaurants.

We're not "liberals." We're for the self-emancipation of the international working class and the abolition of exploitation and the bourgeoisie. Liberals are our enemies just as much as "conservatives" if they're promoting bourgeois politics.

Also - you're "a more complex thinker"? LOL

How much success have you had debating with white supremacists?

I would wager that most people here don't see that as a very good barometer of the validity of one's politics.

[#FF0000]

Well this is going to be a project. One of those times where you honestly just don't know where to start, but I'm gonna do my best.

There are a lot of problems facing black Americans, but institutionalized racism is not necessarily one of those problems in the 21st century.

The United States is a country where black people are imprisoned at a disproportionate rate, where black men are stopped, questioned, and searched at a disproportionate rate, where black convicts receive, on a whole, harsher sentences than white convicts found guilty of the same crime, where black communities are specifically targeted by law enforcement when they're looking for drugs, despite the fact that white people and black people use, sell, and carry drugs at the same rate (that is to say: cops will find drugs wherever they want to look for them), where poverty is often more extreme and more concentrated in black communities, where schools are more segregated than they were when segregation was an actual law, where having a "black" name means being less likely to get a call back for a job even when that name is on an application or resume that shows one is more qualified than the applicant with a "white" name, and so on and so on and so on, and a country where black people are preyed upon by predatory lenders who take advantage of the fact that these groups have less access to educational resources than other groups. And so on, and so on, and so on.

This is all just touching on the issues of race and racism at play in America today, and it's stunning that someone that supposedly keeps themselves up to date on "current events" or "the issues" would be ignorant of these things.

I'm just slapping at keys right now to outline the situation to you here. I trust you'll be able to use google to explore these issues (and I seriously encourage you to), but if you want me to provide you the sources and studies then feel free to ask.

More important issues to worry about when it comes to the black community in America are issues like profane rap culture, the instability of black families, drug issues, and similar others. Institutionalized segregation is no longer the issue it once was.

Now this is some laughable shit. Let me break it down "issue" by "issue".

More important issues to worry about when it comes to the black community in America are issues like profane rap culture

Now this is bullshit because "rap" and "rap culture" are no more profane than any other genre of music or culture in general. Sure, there's some questionable shit re: women and homosexuals in hip hop, but that's not by any means unique to hip hop, but hey, no one's gonna call a shitty middle-of-the-road radio jock-rock band like Nickelback on their overtly sexist and demeaning lyrics. People are quick to put down Biggie and ODB for their treatment of women (which is fair play, to be sure) but when's the last time you heard someone talking shit on John Lennon for beating Yoko Ono until she miscarried or Jimmy Paige for kidnapping and raping a 14 year old girl? If hip hop is so uniquely "profane" then what the fuck is up with "sex, drugs and rock and roll"?

The idea that "rap culture" is uniquely "profane" or regressive or whatever is just a modern rehash of the same old racist bullshit. The exact same, in fact. Go take a glance at what hand-wringing ivory tower white racists had to say about jazz musicians way back when and compare it to what our contemporary hand-wringing ivory-tower white racists have to say about rappers. It's the same damn thing.

black on black crime rates,

Hey, just like the last issue, this is some old bullshit. Now, it's true that most of the victims of black criminals are black themselves, but that's not something unique. Most of the victims of white criminals are white themselves as well, but we don't hear any hand-wringing over "white on white" crime, do we now? Add to that the fact that violent crime has been on a downward spiral in the last decadeacross the country, including in the inner-cities, thanks in large part to all of the community organizations that have sprouted up to deal with crime before it happens.

the instability of black families

Again, this isn't a unique issue to the black community. Divorce has been on the rise for decades for every demographic, and we know that this puts a heavy burden on working class single parents who have to work and take care of children. If this is a "black" issue, then it's because that poverty is more concentrated in the black community.

And as for the drugs, that, again, isn't a uniquely "black" issue. Black and white people use drugs at the same rate.

Has anyone here actually put more effort into online-debating than myself? I hate to go on the defensive, but apparently I have no choice but to go over my positions:

I am:

-pro gay marriage
-pro choice
-pro libertarian socialism
-pro separation of church and state
-pro taxing the rich, pro public education, pro union, etc, etc
-pro gun regulations, in the sense that I believe guns should be legal, but strictly regulated

Holy shit you are a living, breathing parody of yourself.

[#FF0000]

I knew when this thread was on page one that it was gonna be a cringe riot but I never expected this.

[the debater]

The United States is a country where black people are imprisoned at a disproportionate rate, where black men are stopped, questioned, and searched at a disproportionate rate, where black convicts receive, on a whole, harsher sentences than white convicts found guilty of the same crime, where black communities are specifically targeted by law enforcement when they're looking for drugs, despite the fact that white people and black people use, sell, and carry drugs at the same rate (that is to say: cops will find drugs wherever they want to look for them), where poverty is often more extreme and more concentrated in black communities, where schools are more segregated than they were when segregation was an actual law, where having a "black" name means being less likely to get a call back for a job even when that name is on an application or resume that shows one is more qualified than the applicant with a "white" name, and so on and so on and so on, and a country where black people are preyed upon by predatory lenders who take advantage of the fact that these groups have less access to educational resources than other groups. And so on, and so on, and so on.

This is all just touching on the issues of race and racism at play in America today, and it's stunning that someone that supposedly keeps themselves up to date on "current events" or "the issues" would be ignorant of these things.

I'm just slapping at keys right now to outline the situation to you here. I trust you'll be able to use google to explore these issues (and I seriously encourage you to), but if you want me to provide you the sources and studies then feel free to ask.

I am familiar with these issues. Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the TV show, The Boondocks?

Now this is bullshit because "rap" and "rap culture" are no more profane than any other genre of music or culture in general. Sure, there's some questionable shit re: women and homosexuals in hip hop, but that's not by any means unique to hip hop, but hey, no one's gonna call a shitty middle-of-the-road radio jock-rock band like Nickelback on their overtly sexist and demeaning lyrics. People are quick to put down Biggie and ODB for their treatment of women (which is fair play, to be sure) but when's the last time you heard someone talking shit on John Lennon for beating Yoko Ono until she miscarried or Jimmy Paige for kidnapping and raping a 14 year old girl? If hip hop is so uniquely "profane" then what the fuck is up with "sex, drugs and rock and roll"?

I did not mean to imply that profane music was only limited to black communities, just that it was a major problem for the black community regardless of whether it was a problem for other racial communities as well. We need to stress the importance of getting a good education in the black community, to the level of where education is stressed in Asian-American communities. This has already happened to a certain extent with African immigrants, especially I believe from Nigeria. Also, remember how Huey Freeman would always disapprove of Thugnificent's actions in Boondocks? We need to get more black youth thinking like Huey Freeman does.

Again, this isn't a unique issue to the black community. Divorce has been on the rise for decades for every demographic, and we know that this puts a heavy burden on working class single parents who have to work and take care of children. If this is a "black" issue, then it's because that poverty is more concentrated in the black community.

Family instability I think has been more significant for blacks, more so than whites. We need to tackle the issues of poverty and family instability at the same time, if possible.

Holy shit you are a living, breathing parody of yourself.

Chill out.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

I think "the debater" has been spending a little too much time on whatever Scumfront's equivalent of OI is.

Fixed that for you

How much success have you had debating with white supremacists?

I have, and they're just too close-minded and intolerant. They don't want to change their views. Most are just intolerant assholes, and some are traumatized after having a few bad experiences with non-whites. Racism is the product of xenophobia, paranoia, cynicism, bigotry, and hate. Sure they promote "oh yeah white pride but not racist or neo-nazi" but then they turn around saying "oh screw n****rs and jews, and Hitler should have won WW2".

[the debater]

I would wager that most people here don't see that as a very good barometer of the validity of one's politics.

Why the hell not? So if I debate and try to argue against white supremacy and white nationalism, that still doesn't mean that I'm an anti-racist?

[synthesis]

Why the hell not? So if I debate and try to argue against white supremacy and white nationalism, that still doesn't mean that I'm an anti-racist?

Honestly, it seems that in "debating against white supremacy and white nationalism" you've conceded many points to them that you shouldn't have. It's hard for me to separate your comments in this thread and the fact that you're backing up your argument with lines from The Boondocks from this line of argument you took in a different thread a little while ago:

Although I haven't had a lot of black friends, (unless Ace High counts, assuming he's black), I still find it hard to believe that there are black people out there who actually get offended by something so trivial.

[#FF0000]

I am familiar with these issues. Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the TV show, The Boondocks?

good stuff i think.

I did not mean to imply that profane music was only limited to black communities, just that it was a major problem for the black community regardless of whether it was a problem for other racial communities as well.

It's not a problem for anyone because music doesn't have to be "conscious" or political or uplifting or positive. There's been plenty of "sex drugs and rock and roll" but for some reason when it's hip hop, there's a moral panic. If there's an issue, it is not an issue particular to, or especially for black communities.

We need to stress the importance of getting a good education in the black community, to the level of where education is stressed in Asian-American communities.

Except that "model minority" stereotype is bullshit too -- typically Asian immigrants that are successful in America are immigrants who came here with wealth, with an education. There is limited to no social mobility for poor Asian immigrants.

[Fakeblock]

How much success have you had debating with white supremacists?

If you've succeeded in that endeavour I think it's time to reevaluate your politics.


Anyway, I think that the reason that a lot of people (me included) view white supremacist ideology as 'worse' than black supremacism is that white supremacists, like men's rights advocates, actually reinforce existing oppressive relations, whereas black supremacists are just a bunch of guys who are wrong and say silly things. Having wrong beliefs is of course regrettable, but in the greater scheme of things it's inconsequential. Golden Dawn fascists terrorising immigrants in the streets while still enjoying legitimacy and parliamentary seats, or white closet-racists murdering young, black men for 'looking like thugs' and getting away with it are whole nother stories. When you boil racism down to just an issue of hate (individual opinions) you miss the whole point of why racism should be combatted.

I've only skimmed the thread so apologies if I'm just parroting other users here.