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Ralph Miliband and the Daily Mail..
So I dunno how many people have followed this, been pretty big new in the UK. Basically the Daily Mail wrote an article labelling Ralph Miliband as "The man who hated Britain" mainly cos of an entry in his diary when he was 17 during WWII when he said the Englishman is the worst nationalist and that he almost wants them to lose the war.
Anyway Ed went crazy about it, demanded an apology, the Mail refused and said it stood by every word but now everyone is saying how disgusting it is that they slandered a dead man, and one who actually 'loved his country' and served it - he was in the navy for a couple of years during the war
And I just find the whole thing pretty silly so wanted to have a moan about it. You can read the article here and my main problems are that it's pretty poor journalism, it has a flimsy basis, and completely misunderstands socialism. But everyone's reaction to it has been almost as annoying as the article itself, all this faux outrage and self righteousness where it's so disgusting to criticise someone because they're dead and served in the navy, even though Ralph was obviously a very high profile Marxist academic not just some private individual who's life they have inappropriately probed into. And especially irritating is all the rhetoric about how "this is a man who fought for Britain, he loved this country!!!!", as though Ralph was some proud patriot taking up arms in defence of great britain and as if being unpatriotic and anti-nationalist is the worst thing you could possibly be accused of
This was Ed's reply to it btw: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...-Miliband.html
Last edited by Bronco; 3rd October 2013 at 22:50.
Well, I'm not big fan of people who sign up to join the Navy, and I regard WWII as being as much of an imperialist war as WWI, and I really do want Britain to be destroyed (by the revolting working class rather than the German Army) and I'm sure if I read any Ralph Milliband now I'd puke (though I thought him rather good in my callow youth), but really, anyone that is attacked by the Daily Mail has my sympathy.
Critique of the Gotha Programme, Pt IV: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm
No War but the Class War
Destroy All Nations
Lucius Accius (170 BC - 86 BC): "A man whose life has been dishonorable is not entitled to escape disgrace in death."
nah, really don't care. ralph, his sons, his acolytes and theirs, are no less enemies than the daily mail for me. to hell with the lot of them.
Until now, the left has only managed capital in various ways; the point, however, is to destroy it.
but yeah, the reaction of the british left, to claim that patriotism and socialism can and should go hand in hand, makes me sick.
Until now, the left has only managed capital in various ways; the point, however, is to destroy it.
also, it's kind of testament to how shit a "marxist", "communist" or "socialist" ralph miliband was that the only dirt they can find on him is from a diary he wrote aged 17.
Until now, the left has only managed capital in various ways; the point, however, is to destroy it.
I for one am angered by Ed Miliband's smearing of his own father as "patriotic". Has he no respect for a dead Marxist? I say we hold a protest outside Mr. Miliband's house until he makes an official apology.
Ralph Miliband famously predicted the Labour Party would betray the working class, and he produced two sons to prove it.
"It is slaves, struggling to throw off their chains, who unleash the movement whereby history abolishes masters." - Raoul Vaneigem
"Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality will have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things." - Karl Marx
"What distinguishes reform from revolution is not that revolution is violent, but that it links insurrection and communisation." - Gilles Dauvé
I don't get the whole 'I want to destroy Britain' idea, or 'yeah I don't give a shit' sort of thing.
I mean yeah, on the face of it, that sounds really radical and rebellious, but let's take a minute to actually examine what is meant by this.
Destroy Britain in terms of, as a legal entity, being a country? Sure. In fact, definitely, because that goes hand in hand with statehood, which i'm sure a lot of us on the left can agree is mutually exclusive to a socialist society.
But, destroy Britain as a nation of people? That's a pretty ugly concept. Now of course, nation and nationalism are two words that sound the same, but in fact the concept of nation is quite far-reaching. Most people who invest in nationalist ideas conflate the idea of nation with the idea of of homogenous culture and ethnic identity, and more importantly also with the idea of country and state.
The idea of nation can also mean something much more heterogenous, and much more malign, and even positive. Tracking Britain's history back to 1066, we can see that between then and now, the history of the 'British nation' can be shaped in terms of an evolving culture; an evolution based on the struggles of the exploited - the struggles of the peasantry in the 14th century, the struggles of the new working class in the new towns and cities from the 18th century to the present day, the cultural assimilation of various waves of migrants over the course of the past millennium, and so on.
To want to destroy this is pretty reductionist. At its core, it befits an attitude that culture does not matter, that history does not matter, that the evolution of different groups of people does not matter, that the only thing that matters is narrow economism, and one's own ideas of political revolution.
It's a shame that people tend to conflate almost anything to do with 'culture' as nationalism, and thus seek to destroy said culture and said identities. If we ever want to be able to have a discussion about the British people without invoking backwards and hateful ideas of empire and nationalism, if we ever want to be able to have a discussion about culture without being forced to choose between the idea of 'supporting migration for economic benefits' and the hateful, nationalist ideologies of the right, then we actually need to embrace the idea that cultural heterogeneity exists across the globe, that it is a fluid concept (unlike what those on far-right think), and that it is something worth exploring, and defending.
In that sense, I think it's pretty pig-headed to just display a general hatred of 'Britain', because there's plenty to love about Britain when you strip it back to its people, its land, its wildlife and elements of its culture, just like one could say about any area of the globe. It's pretty silly to overlook this just because the far-right tries to use such symbols and imagery to stoke up hatred and split communities apart.
There's a difference between liking aspects of your national culture and being "patriotic".
Did Ralph Miliband actually wrote "I want to destroy Britain", BTW? The Mail article doesn't quote such a phrase.
Last edited by Rurkel; 5th October 2013 at 18:39. Reason: Removed the first paragraph of my post, it was only confusing
Ed will be cosying up to Harmsworth , Dacre and Murdoch if the other Tories win the next election - bread and circuses
R.I.P Juan Almeida Bosque
"The true focus of revolutionary change is never merely
the oppressive situations which we seek to escape,
but that piece of the oppressor which is
planted deep within each of us." Audre Lorde
Well, that's a pretty fucking asinine comment. Of course the Daily Mail weren't interested in taking on R. Miliband's political ideas and the story is a testament to the piss-poor journalism and sickening narrow-minded fuck-headedness of the Daily Mail not R. Miliband's Marxism. Frankly, if this is all you've got to say on the issue then it is a sad reflection on your Marxism. Fuck you if you can't bring yourself to defend a Marxist from the Tory press.
Last edited by Hit The North; 6th October 2013 at 01:23.
"Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not." - Rosa Luxemburg
"There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin
it's not defending a (dead) marxist from the "tory press" (what's that? is the "labour press" any better), in this case, the only person you're defending is ed miliband. if ralph miliband was alive and being hounded you may well have a point, but he isn't, so there's no "defending" to be done.
Until now, the left has only managed capital in various ways; the point, however, is to destroy it.
Perhaps you are right and there is no defending to do. Nevertheless, it puzzles me why you use it as an opportunity to attack a dead Marxist rather than the reactionary anti-working-class Tory wankers who write and read the Daily Mail.
Last edited by Hit The North; 6th October 2013 at 01:26.
"Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not." - Rosa Luxemburg
"There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin
it's simple - he hates his father.
Ed and Ralph standing on a rickety sky-platform labelled 'Marxism':
'He told me you'd killed my father!'
'No, Ed, I am your father!'
*Dramatic music as Ed throws himself down a big hole marked 'capitulation to the bourgeoisie'.
Or something.
Critique of the Gotha Programme, Pt IV: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm
No War but the Class War
Destroy All Nations
Lucius Accius (170 BC - 86 BC): "A man whose life has been dishonorable is not entitled to escape disgrace in death."
Does anyone really care what the daily mail has to say about, well, anything?
Someday they'll get theirs.
For the glory of socialism & love!
Well, we have the Daily mail to thank for one thing; sales of Ralph Miliband's books have skyrocketed.
"It is slaves, struggling to throw off their chains, who unleash the movement whereby history abolishes masters." - Raoul Vaneigem
"Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality will have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things." - Karl Marx
"What distinguishes reform from revolution is not that revolution is violent, but that it links insurrection and communisation." - Gilles Dauvé
Probably the same publisher...
Critique of the Gotha Programme, Pt IV: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm
No War but the Class War
Destroy All Nations
Lucius Accius (170 BC - 86 BC): "A man whose life has been dishonorable is not entitled to escape disgrace in death."
i was just responding to the topic at hand.
any marxist worth his or her salt should expect scorn and hate for their views, from the daily mail (or the guardian). ralph miliband had tory mps coming out defending him, saying they were taught by him and he was a decent man with unthreatening views. says it all.
why's that a good thing?
Until now, the left has only managed capital in various ways; the point, however, is to destroy it.
Maybe, on a personal level, he was a decent man? Or at least has been made to seem so in comparison to those who post a picture of his grave and post a 'witty' caption about it? I dunno why that's so hard to believe, just because you disagree with his politics.
Besides, he never held a position of power, so I guess they can't lob the usual 'MILIBAND ATE BABIES AND CAUSED ALL THE WORLD WARS' stuff at him.
But what about ed miliband?
"to become a philosopher, start by walking very slowly"
