sure, but thats only sustainable in socialism, not under capitalism surely?
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And here's why:
do to the affluence of europe, people are living longer. now normally this would result in simply the older section of the population being larger.
But it also getting expensive to raise children, which mean less people consider raising a family.
Result: an aging population.
This is bad news. too many people too old to work supported by too few working age people mean a greater drain on the workforce. Taxes are raised to support the cost of illness of this ageing population.
There is another thing to consider: more work is being outsourced to less well-off countries with rising populations, this surfeit of jobs meaning that it is 'sensible' to have 6-8 kids who can work long hours and earn the family money.
Allowing immigrants to do the work they would normallly do in their home countries in europe would take the strain off 'outsourced' countries.
They would also pay taxes to look after both themselves and the ageing native population.
Even if they are dirt-poor by western standards, they will a better life in europe due to the better social security compared to their home nations.
This is of course paid for by both them and the natives.
Some foreigners are rich enough to start businesses in europe. this too should be encouraged.
Culturally it makes sense too. Europe has always been a melting pot for different 'races' and cultures.
anglo-saxons, norse, north africans,iberians, slavs, muslims etc, all within what is globally speaking a small area.
With the recent flood of light-speed communication, It is now easier than ever to find out what both sides say.
Care should be taken to reduce fricition between immigrants and natives. It is no good having a fit workforce if they are afraid to leave their homes. loyalty to race and culture should be discouraged,
the racial supremacists will of course scream bloody murder about 'the murder of western/white culture'
it should be pointed out to these poor souls that western culture IS about multiculturalism, since the Romans have left their influence over lots of europe, the muslims have left an influence in Spain, and the turks in Greece/Macedonia.
Multiculturalism can also breathe new life into the arts. Music has been influenced by rap and reggae, (Also the first rockers were black), Painting/sculpture by the 'naive' works of african tribesmen, australian bushmen, and the natives of oceania. Haiku is the japanese contribution to poetry.
The film influences of Bollywood, although considered tackily melodramatic by some, have to be admired for their sense of drama and romance.
Not to mention the culinary delights of Chinese, Indian, Thai and Mexican food. mmm.
And that's not all of it.
So throw open the doors and welcome the foreigner with a warm smile and a secure job!
-NoX
The Human Progress Group
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sure, but thats only sustainable in socialism, not under capitalism surely?
<span style=\'color:red\'>www.marxist.com Committee for a Marxist International</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>Proleteriat of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>HandsOffVenezuela in solidarity with the Venezuelan workers and the Venezuelan Revolution</span>
Yes, I agree. Nations in Europe talk about probelms with handling immigration. The only problem is that we reject those who are economic migrants. Some say that foreigners commit crime and take money from our system. If this does exist to any extent it is the fault of our system that we have so much crime and that we do not provide people with jobs.
Formerly known as Chairman Mao
Between the people and their enemies there can be nothing in common but the sword; we must govern by iron those who cannot be governed by justice
~Saint-Just
I condemn the dust of which I am made, this dust that speaks to you now. It can be persecuted, it can be brought to death. But I challenge the world to take from me that part of me which will live through the centuries and survive in the skies.
~Saint-Just
Not only that, comrade. These so-called 'economic' immigrats usually leave their countries because the western hemisphere rapes them, their land and their children. No wonder they are looking for a better life in the west.
Talking of the problems of an aging population, have you seen the problems in Italy?
Whole villages are becomnig deserted as the residents die of old age and their few children move to the city.
Its happening all over Old Europe
Political Compass:
Socio/Economic -12.00
Liberal/Authoritarian: -12.00
I say fuck borders!!
Open all countries for everybody!! That is the only way to evolve.
La vida es hermosa, hay que disfrutarla. Hasta La Victoria Siempre Carajo!!
A good martial artist is like water.
Why?, because water is insubstancial.
By that I mean you cant grab water you cant punch it and hurt it.
So be soft like water and be flexible, be formless, shapeless like water.
Now you put water in a cup it becomes a cup
the water can flow
the water can crash
be water my friend..
/Bruce Lee
If only!
That would be great.
how the fuck would that be great? it would just mean the capitalist could squeese the workers further more with more unemployed coming into the country. Particularly because 1st generation immigrants work their fucking bollocks off like 15 hours a day minimum, i dont think bosses will employ more high paying people...
<span style=\'color:red\'>www.marxist.com Committee for a Marxist International</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>Proleteriat of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>HandsOffVenezuela in solidarity with the Venezuelan workers and the Venezuelan Revolution</span>
The immigrant problem is tolerated because they work for businesses. There must be a large number of organisations who are able to force illegal immigrants to work for shit.
Political Compass:
Socio/Economic -12.00
Liberal/Authoritarian: -12.00
I mean, why shouldnt the rest of the world be able to travel and work in whatever part of the world they want to just as me and a few percent of the worlds population? I have the blessing of being born in a "West" country and I think it bloody unfair that people from for example south america, africa, asia shouldnt have the same rights as me.. Abolish borders I say
La vida es hermosa, hay que disfrutarla. Hasta La Victoria Siempre Carajo!!
A good martial artist is like water.
Why?, because water is insubstancial.
By that I mean you cant grab water you cant punch it and hurt it.
So be soft like water and be flexible, be formless, shapeless like water.
Now you put water in a cup it becomes a cup
the water can flow
the water can crash
be water my friend..
/Bruce Lee
First of all I'd like to say that this is an excellent post. In sociology the term for fear of an influx of immigrants is called "xenaphobia" and it seems Europe seems to suffer from xenaphobia, especially in Germany. In fact the rise of immigrants from Central and Eastern Europe, Turkey and Africa has led to a rise in the popularity or extreme right political groups.
A couple of these groups have won small, but still noticable amounts of the parlimentry elections and in Austria, the son of an ex-SS officer (who just happens to also be a member of the far right) won the presidency and his politcal party won a large number of public positions.
I still disagree with opening of borders under capitlaist system, it will just mean the smashing of workers rights, as they will be pusheed down, coz for every worker presently, there will be some who have just come in, who will work for less, this will lead to cuts in wages, and a rise in racism. Who the fuck wants that?
<span style=\'color:red\'>www.marxist.com Committee for a Marxist International</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>Proleteriat of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>HandsOffVenezuela in solidarity with the Venezuelan workers and the Venezuelan Revolution</span>
North Korea must open its borders.h34r:
I do listen to a lot of hip-hop myself, but as I said on Che-Lives I would get rid of all my CDs if Kim Jong Il told me. - Chairman Mao
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I can't believe what reactionary shit you are posting here, Kamo. far away from any leftist perspective.
Go, and join your ideological friends of the BNP!
Smash Fortress Europe!
"The proletariat, when it seizes power [...] should and must at once undertake socialist measures in the most energetic, unyielding and unhesitant fashion, in other words, exercise a dictatorship, but a dictatorship of the CLASS, not of a party or of a clique -- dictatorship of the class, that means in the broadest possible form on the basis of the most active, unlimited participation of the mass of the people, of unlimited democracy." - Rosa Luxemburg
"An Rhein und Ruhr marschieren wir. / Für unsere Freiheit kämpfen wir! / Den Streifendienst, schlagt ihn entzwei! / Edelweiß marschiert – Achtung – die Straße frei!"
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hmm, thats cheap Malte.
Dont you think the conditions of open borders should be under a socialist state?
The only other condition i can think of is of immigrants gaining 100% equal rights when they come here, and i cant see the capitalists agreeing to that, can you? and at the same time the left must be in a very strong position to oppose the blatant racism that would be spread, are we in a position to do this? Im pretty dissapointed in your respose
what are your views on my reply?
<span style=\'color:red\'>www.marxist.com Committee for a Marxist International</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>Proleteriat of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>HandsOffVenezuela in solidarity with the Venezuelan workers and the Venezuelan Revolution</span>
I agree. As the population of our country increases productivity will rise. There will be a larger workforce, as long as we have the resources to create employment for it our country's productive capacity will increase. In addition, our workforce is constantly becoming more skilled, so there are less and less people doing menial labour for low wages.
The influx of immigrants in the past has meant immigrants entering the country and taking jobs that British people are leaving because they are becoming more skilled. It is the same in other countries such as the U.S.
What you say is true to a minimal extent, that not all industries will expand and take on more workers, that some industries will not grow as fast as the population. Also, the suggestion that more immigrants will cause a rise in racism is similar to the right-wing argument that racism is inevitable because different cultures are fundamentally incompatible. As our society becomes more diverse in its ethnicity it will not necessarily lead to greater racism.
Formerly known as Chairman Mao
Between the people and their enemies there can be nothing in common but the sword; we must govern by iron those who cannot be governed by justice
~Saint-Just
I condemn the dust of which I am made, this dust that speaks to you now. It can be persecuted, it can be brought to death. But I challenge the world to take from me that part of me which will live through the centuries and survive in the skies.
~Saint-Just
Is that really the position of you, or your Trotzkyist sect? If so, they are a bunch of nationalist oppourtunists, and obviesly fishing for votes within the far Right.
Your position is so reactionary and pseudo-leftist, I can't believe you don't realize it by yourself. Who can you grant immigrants 100% equal rights, when you deny to let them come in your country at all? What a fucking hypocricy! A socialist state is very very far from reality, what you are saying is theoretical bullshit, this is not about socialism, but about oppose and fight the inhuman capitalist reality, which grants prosperity and wealth only to about 1% of the world population, while people are starving and oppressed in the rest of the world.
"The proletariat, when it seizes power [...] should and must at once undertake socialist measures in the most energetic, unyielding and unhesitant fashion, in other words, exercise a dictatorship, but a dictatorship of the CLASS, not of a party or of a clique -- dictatorship of the class, that means in the broadest possible form on the basis of the most active, unlimited participation of the mass of the people, of unlimited democracy." - Rosa Luxemburg
"An Rhein und Ruhr marschieren wir. / Für unsere Freiheit kämpfen wir! / Den Streifendienst, schlagt ihn entzwei! / Edelweiß marschiert – Achtung – die Straße frei!"
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Most of the world's problems can be solved by a global Communist revolution - hunger, poverty, famine etc etc
oh dear me, Malte, keep your shouting to yourself, you hero of the masses...
"Is that really the position of you, or your Trotzkyist sect? If so, they are a bunch of nationalist oppourtunists, and obviesly fishing for votes within the far Right."
-Nope, this is my own stance
"Your position is so reactionary and pseudo-leftist, I can't believe you don't realize it by yourself. Who can you grant immigrants 100% equal rights, when you deny to let them come in your country at all? What a fucking hypocricy!"
-Well if you read my post, youd see that i support the immigrants coming in ON CONDITION that they have 100% the same rights as indigenous workers
"A socialist state is very very far from reality, what you are saying is theoretical bullshit, this is not about socialism, but about oppose and fight the inhuman capitalist reality, which grants prosperity and wealth only to about 1% of the world population, while people are starving and oppressed in the rest of the world. "
-Yes very good, so how is allowing immigrants coming in going to
a) support the workers who are suffering from famine etc?
b) affect the workers who are being laid off here due to the recession?
The effect will be simple, the capitalists will use the cheaper labour, who will that benefit other than capitalists? What is the most effective way of helping the people who are forced to emigrate? Surely its by fighting for a socialist revolution here, which will end the imperialist raping of other lands?
I personally think your pissed that you couldnt respond to the previous differences of views concerning Iran...
Mao,
"I agree. As the population of our country increases productivity will rise. There will be a larger workforce, as long as we have the resources to create employment for it our country's productive capacity will increase. In addition, our workforce is constantly becoming more skilled, so there are less and less people doing menial labour for low wages."
First off, who controls the means of production? the capitalist, and in this current climate of economic decline, production will not increase, rather cheaper labour will be used. Are you supporting immigrants coming in just so thet can have "menial labour for low wages", sorry but most immigrants come to the west with diplomas
"The influx of immigrants in the past has meant immigrants entering the country and taking jobs that British people are leaving because they are becoming more skilled. It is the same in other countries such as the U.S."
a)you have any sources to prove that
b)new workers are forcing indeginous labour out, rather than workers leaving, i dont see the benefits of that
"What you say is true to a minimal extent, that not all industries will expand and take on more workers, that some industries will not grow as fast as the population. Also, the suggestion that more immigrants will cause a rise in racism is similar to the right-wing argument that racism is inevitable because different cultures are fundamentally incompatible. As our society becomes more diverse in its ethnicity it will not necessarily lead to greater racism."
-No i believe racism will rise, because the right is in a better position than ourselves to spread their ideas, than we can spread ours.
-Maybe if there was a shortage of workers, borders could be loosened to increase productivity, however that is why under a socialist state can we really smash the borders, more workers come? Bang, you put up new factories or offices for people to work, and on the other side, you can begin a revolutionary war to smash up other bourgeoise states, allowing workers in other countries to take power of their own destinies, than being forced to leave families to go to another country.
What are your opinions?
I am not fixed to my opinions, i think its an interesting issue, and if we cut out the slogans and the smearing campaigns, then maybe we can all improve and develop our ideas?
<span style=\'color:red\'>www.marxist.com Committee for a Marxist International</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>Proleteriat of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>HandsOffVenezuela in solidarity with the Venezuelan workers and the Venezuelan Revolution</span>
just to add as a note, i think to answer the question, we must think what will ultimately benefit the workers (internationally, as workers have no borders), and the workers only, we shouldnt concern outselves in what would benefit the capitalists.
<span style=\'color:red\'>www.marxist.com Committee for a Marxist International</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>Proleteriat of the world unite! We have nothing to lose but our chains!</span>
<span style=\'color:red\'>HandsOffVenezuela in solidarity with the Venezuelan workers and the Venezuelan Revolution</span>
