Israeli flag appropriate?

[DimSumMetal]

HELL NO!
As an Israeli, I really hate all those anti-deutche people who don't know shit.
You can't wave the flag of a fascist state in an antifascist rally or demonstration, it just doesn't work like that!

[Niall]

Certainly not in my opinion

[Niall]

It's use is limited to Germany, where neo Nazis have adopted the anti imperialist rhetoric of the new left. 'Anti imperialism' today has become reactionary, however the use of Israeli or American flags to combat them is pathetic and only reaffirms the nonexistence of an affirmative Left, it is no wonder you find so many racist antigermans, it's because there is a silent form of solidarity today between the European far right and Israeli nationalism only with the exception of Germany, whose neonazis perfectly embody the dissolution of any progressive anti imperialism inherent to Communism today (post 90s), the only progressive form of anti globalization that has ever existed was in the Zapatista movement, the rest were ultra reactionary. It's no wonder Maoists tend to be so damned socially conservative, raving on about bourgeois decadence.

Antigermans are confused, they see what many on the left cannot, yet decide to address it through bullshit like this.

I assume you mean its use on antifascist demos etc?

[A Psychological Symphony]

Antisemitic bullshit like this makes me want to wave an Israeli flag and hold up a portrait of Theodor Herzl while wearing a Tottenham football shirt.

Is this a joke? All who oppose the great nation of Israel are anti-Semitic! Pointing out Fascist or racist Israeli policies is Anti-Semitic! Questioning Zionism? Must be a racist Jew hating Nazi, right? That's the only explanation!

[DOOM]

You guys really don't understand the point of the Antideutsche.
the antigerman critic isn't just unreflected stupid philo-semitism. the Antigermans just understand the fact, that after the holocaust happened, the jewish people needed a safe haven to escape total annihilation. Indeed Zionism isn't the non plus ultra(like every other strain of nationalism), but it's crucial in a capitalistic world, to safe the jews from anti-semitism untill capitalism, statism and other reactionary ideas are overthrown.
if you understand german, this article will help you in understanding their points.
cafecritique.priv.at/Philozionismus.html

And the anti-semitism here is really frightening.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Nothing makes me angrier than when people confuse anti Zionism with anti semitism. I love Jewish people, as I love all people. I just do not agree with a Jewish ethno state, as I would disagree with any ethno state. There are so many Jews who actively protest the Israeli government's racist actions which gets about zero media attention. Confusing it with anti semitism would be like accusing me of hating Americans because I oppose the American government's policies. Utterly ridiculous.

[the debater]

And the anti-semitism here is really frightening.

We are not anti-semites. We simply have critical opinions of Jewish policies in Israel that have hurt the local Palestinian populations. That is all.

[Sinister Intents]

Of cousrs the fucking flag of zionism is inappropriate, we're alll antifascist and antizionist and anticolonialist, et cetera!!!

[Sinister Intents]

You guys really don't understand the point of the Antideutsche.
the antigerman critic isn't just unreflected stupid philo-semitism. the Antigermans just understand the fact, that after the holocaust happened, the jewish people needed a safe haven to escape total annihilation. Indeed Zionism isn't the non plus ultra(like every other strain of nationalisn), but it's crucial in a capitalistic world, to safe the jews from anti-semitism untill capitalism, statism and other reactionary ideas are overthrown.
if you understand german, this article will help you in understanding their points.
cafecritique.priv.at/Philozionismus.html

And the anti-semitism here is really frightening.

I'm not anti-semitic, but I am anti-religious. Fuck all religions and zionism!!!

[A Psychological Symphony]

You guys really don't understand the point of the Antideutsche.
the antigerman critic isn't just unreflected stupid philo-semitism. the Antigermans just understand the fact, that after the holocaust happened, the jewish people needed a safe haven to escape total annihilation. Indeed Zionism isn't the non plus ultra(like every other strain of nationalisn), but it's crucial in a capitalistic world, to safe the jews from anti-semitism untill capitalism, statism and other reactionary ideas are overthrown.
if you understand german, this article will help you in understanding their points.
cafecritique.priv.at/Philozionismus.html

And the anti-semitism here is really frightening.

Can you point out one actual anti-Semitic post in this thread? One that attacks Jewish people, and not the racist state that is Israel? I'm not seeing anti-semitism here I'm see a solid stance on anti-nationalism no matter who is portraying the nationalism.

[Sea]

We are not anti-semites. We simply have critical opinions of Jewish policies in Israel that have hurt the local Palestinian populations. That is all.

The fact that you referred to said policies as Jewish rather than Israeli is certainly alarming.

[DimSumMetal]

You guys really don't understand the point of the Antideutsche.
the antigerman critic isn't just unreflected stupid philo-semitism. the Antigermans just understand the fact, that after the holocaust happened, the jewish people needed a safe haven to escape total annihilation. Indeed Zionism isn't the non plus ultra(like every other strain of nationalisn), but it's crucial in a capitalistic world, to safe the jews from anti-semitism untill capitalism, statism and other reactionary ideas are overthrown.
if you understand german, this article will help you in understanding their points.
cafecritique.priv.at/Philozionismus.html

And the anti-semitism here is really frightening.

Listen, as an Israeli who currently lives in Israel I can tell you it's total bullshit.
Not antisemitism, this is real and freightening, but the state solution to it.
Not only that Israel is probably the most anti-semitic state in the world in the way it treats ultra-orthodox jews (who have the most chances of running into anti-semitism outside of Israel) and it commits crimes against the palestinians in a way no one can justify but anti-semitism should be fought everywhere anytime, the state solution to anti-semitism is just an escape from the front of the battle against anti-semitism, it's legitimate to not be at the front but it's not something one should support as a solution, it also creates arguements such as "If you don't want people to treat you bad you can just go to Israel" and other sorts of anti-semitic justification.

Another thing worth mentioning is that Israel is only a safe place for a Jew if you are a white, heterosexual, cisgender, man, not too religious yet not completely atheist Jew.
Just like every state, it consists of the usual heirarchy, only it does not include judaism in it in the same way as everywhere.
Jews of middle-eastern (as opposed to european, like myself) origin were and still are marginalized, even the national anthem of Israel excludes them.
So no, it's not a "safe haven for Jews" like you called it, it's only a safe haven for the very non-marginalized Jews.

And to sum it all up...
Anti zionism - YES
Anti semitism - NO

If you want I'll be glad to talk about it more from my point of view as an Israeli through Email: mynameismine123 @ gmail .com

[Queen Mab]

The one thing about anti-zionism amongst the left that makes me uncomfortable is the repeated Israel = Nazi Germany analogies. I don't think it's antisemitic, but I'd find it pretty insensitive if I were a Jew. Until the Israeli state starts putting Palestinians into ovens I think the comparison is unwarranted and little more than using the holocaust as a cheap shot at zionists.

[DimSumMetal]

The one thing about anti-zionism amongst the left that makes me uncomfortable is the repeated Israel = Nazi Germany analogies. I don't think it's antisemitic, but I'd find it pretty insensitive if I were a Jew. Until the Israeli state starts putting Palestinians into ovens I think the comparison is unwarranted and little more than using the holocaust as a cheap shot at zionists.

Well, that is half-true-half-false.
The only Jews here that get offended by this comparison are those who are supporters of zionism.
It's not a "cheap shot", it's the reality of zionism, I don't want to wait until palestinians are put into ovens before we start taking it seriously, and no one is taking it seriously.
Even if not about the Palestinians, you should see how Israel treats the eritrean refugees, it's pretty much the 40's all over again.
Deportation officers flooding south Tel-Aviv, looking for refugees to deport, local people supporting the officers and cheering.
Palestinians having a completely different law system than Israelis in the West Bank (israelis are governed by the Israeli law there while palestinians are governed by an army law that is decided and made by millitary high-ranks).
The comparison is reality, and it must be stopped before it gets to the stage in which no one would be able to deny the similarity between Europe in the 40's and Israel today.

[DOOM]

Listen, as an Israeli who currently lives in Israel I can tell you it's total bullshit.
Not antisemitism, this is real and freightening, but the state solution to it.
Not only that Israel is probably the most anti-semitic state in the world in the way it treats ultra-orthodox jews (who have the most chances of running into anti-semitism outside of Israel) and it commits crimes against the palestinians in a way no one can justify but anti-semitism should be fought everywhere anytime, the state solution to anti-semitism is just an escape from the front of the battle against anti-semitism, it's legitimate to not be at the front but it's not something one should support as a solution, it also creates arguements such as "If you don't want people to treat you bad you can just go to Israel" and other sorts of anti-semitic justification.

Another thing worth mentioning is that Israel is only a safe place for a Jew if you are a white, heterosexual, cisgender, man, not too religious yet not completely atheist Jew.
Just like every state, it consists of the usual heirarchy, only it does not include judaism in it in the same way as everywhere.
Jews of middle-eastern (as opposed to european, like myself) origin were and still are marginalized, even the national anthem of Israel excludes them.
So no, it's not a "safe haven for Jews" like you called it, it's only a safe haven for the very non-marginalized Jews.

And to sum it all up...
Anti zionism - YES
Anti semitism - NO

If you want I'll be glad to talk about it more from my point of view as an Israeli through Email: mynameismine123 @ gmail .com

I perfectly understand that the current situation in Israel is shit and that unprivileged people are mistreated like everywhere. This is not something I've been arguing about. I just criticized the fact that some in the left think the destruction of the Israeli State would lead to a better middle east. But I don't see the point in this. Why should the Israeli state get destroyed?

[Sinister Intents]

The one thing about anti-zionism amongst the left that makes me uncomfortable is the repeated Israel = Nazi Germany analogies. I don't think it's antisemitic, but I'd find it pretty insensitive if I were a Jew. Until the Israeli state starts putting Palestinians into ovens I think the comparison is unwarranted and little more than using the holocaust as a cheap shot at zionists.

Certainly my ex girlfriends's father would think that the Palestinians should be brutally massacred in such a way. He thought the parallels were insulting and insensitive, but some of the extreme reactionary shit he would say made him sound like a Nazi...

[Per Levy]

Why should the Israeli state get destroyed?

because it is a bourgeois capitalist state, and just like any other bourgeois state it should be destroyed.

also let me tell you something about the anti-germans, they are shit, plain and simple, they support capitalist states, any war that is done by the usa like the afghanistan war, the iraq war, both of them and so on and so forth. they call themselfs "communists" yet support right-wing and racist politics and politicians. also anti-germans are so very german it hurts.

[DOOM]

because it is a bourgeois capitalist state, and just like any other bourgeois state it should be destroyed.

Indeed, like every other state the bourgeoise Israeli state needs to be destroyed, when time has come. But it's not just Israel that needs to be destroyed. That's the point of the Anti-germans

also let me tell you something about the anti-germans, they are shit, plain and simple, they support capitalist states, any war that is done by the usa like the afghanistan war, the iraq war, both of them and so on and so forth. they call themselfs "communists" yet support right-wing and racist politics and politicians. also anti-germans are so very german it hurts.

I also think that their movement is utter shit, since they openly supported Milosevic and other warmongers.
I just pointed out, that anti-germans believe that a state Israel is needed untill a revolution occurs. Simple as that. And I'm perfectly fine with this fact. But that doesn't mean I support them in some way.
Saying that only Israel needs to be destroyed is utter bullshit, since the Israeli state would be replaced by a maybe more horrible regime

[Bala Perdida]

The one thing about anti-zionism amongst the left that makes me uncomfortable is the repeated Israel = Nazi Germany analogies. I don't think it's antisemitic, but I'd find it pretty insensitive if I were a Jew. Until the Israeli state starts putting Palestinians into ovens I think the comparison is unwarranted and little more than using the holocaust as a cheap shot at zionists.

The way a Zionist views an Palestinian is quite horrendous. They actually believe that "Arabs only understand through force" and their policies reflect that. I mean the whole colonization of the land in the name of Israel just mirrors Hitlers living space policy. Other things like the videos in which Israeli soldiers are seen literally labeling Palestinian civilians, and truck loads of casualties due to Israeli military violence don't help differentiate them; especially with children on the receiving end. It's also important to note that while their concentration camps are not as brutal as the Nazi camps, they still exist and hold people considered ethnically different. Also the showering of the Palestinians with white phosphorus among other crimes just shows their brutality. So when you put these well known crimes together it's easy to see a reflection of the Nazis. It appears they have and keep becoming the monster they were supposedly running from when the state was declared. So, when you call a Zionist a Nazi you're basically trying to remind them of the atrocities they suffered and show them that they are being no different. They are being Nazis on a smaller scale, but Nazis nonetheless. Of course I do feel bad for any Jewish people that take offense. But just tell them the fight is against the Zionist government, not against the Jewish people. Not every Jewish person is a Zionist, just like how not every German is a Nazi.

[the debater]

Religion has probably been a huge source of conflict in the Middle East. Imagine if there had been no religion, how much easier people would get along? I've witnessed first-hand how brainwashed people can get from being religious. It ain't pretty.