Refutations of White Nationalist Arguments

[the debater]

Today's been a pretty busy day for me, but I've been itching to get these sources posted. In this first post and in future posts, I will submit arguments that white nationalists/supremacists commonly use to justify their positions, and then I will post a link that will either contradict that argument, or will at least shed new light on it. Without further ado, here are refutations of white nationalist arguments:

1) Blacks have a higher propensity towards crime.

Not necessarily. Yes it's true that African-Americans have higher crime rates than whites. And yes, it's true that predominately white West Virginia, despite being a heavily poor state, does in fact have a low crime rate. However, West Virginia is a rural state, and many of its residents live in the countryside. Many poor blacks on the other hand, live in the city or in urban areas. Does this affect the crime rate? Take a look at this link:
POVERTY, NOT RACE, TIED TO HIGH CRIME RATES IN URBAN COMMUNITIES

In case you're wondering, Krivo states in the study that Columbus Ohio is the only large city to have large numbers of poor white neighborhoods. For whatever reason, crime rates in certain situations can be affected by location as well as by poverty.

2) Whites have higher IQs than blacks, so thus we need to be separated.

Yes, it's true that in America, blacks do have lower IQs on average than whites. However, certain studies have indicated that blacks can on average have IQs on par with whites provided they are influenced by similar environments: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-IQgapgenetic.htm

It's also interesting to note that even non-poor black families sometimes still choose to live in poor neighborhoods. Perhaps that has something to do with why poor whites do better on the SAT than rich blacks? According to one of the study's co-investigators:

Black families are more likely to live in poor neighborhoods, whether or not they are poor themselves. "Almost one half of all black children whose families were not poor resided in poor neighborhoods, compared with less than 10 percent of white children," said Duncan.

Likewise, we shouldn't forget about British GCSE exams, where poor white boys have the worst passing rates: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...lassmates.html

By the age of 16, only 23% of white boys eligible for free school meals achieved five or more GCSE exams at grade C or better, in subjects including English and maths.

The new analysis of Government data, released by the Conservatives, showed that 61 per cent of the poorest Chinese boys and 42 per cent of Asian boys on free school meals achieved the GCSE target last year. Among black boys, the figure was 34 per cent.

Across state schools in England, 55% of all pupils achieved five GCSEs at grades A*-C, including English and maths.

3) Whites are superior when it comes to upper-body strength.

Well, if you're trying to say that the white race is superior to all other races in terms of upper-body strength and holds a monopoly on strength accomplishments, than no. Yes, whites are overrepresented in strongman competitions and perhaps among power-lifting champions. However, many of these whites are Scandinavians and Eastern Europeans, and whites from Latin America and Southern Europe are less represented. This indicates that strength athletics are more popular in Scandinavia and Eastern Europe than elsewhere, which might explain why whites seem to dominate these types of contests. The question then becomes, can non-whites succeed in strength athletics if they are interested in them? You better believe it. The following is a list of strong non-white athletes.

• Mark Henry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Henry

By the time Henry finished high school, he was a three-time Texas state champion with state and national records in all four powerlifting categories—the squat at 832 lb (377 kg), bench press at 525 lb (238 kg) and deadlift at 815 lb (370 kg) as well as the total at 2,033 lb (922 kg).

* official weightlifting total + official powerlifting total = Combined Supertotal:

400.0 kg + 1060.0 kg = 1460.0 kg / 881.8 lbs + 2336.9 lbs = 3218.7 lbs raw with wraps
→ current all-time highest combined weightlifting/powerlifting total in history (since 1996*)

When asked in September 2003, who the strongest man in the world is today [2003], Bill Kazmaier, considered by many to be the greatest strongman of all time, stated: "It would have to be Mark Henry.[...] I think he's one of the strongest men in the history of the world, without a doubt."

Likewise, Mark Henry was also the winner of the 2002 Arnold Strongman Classic:

Since Mark had only trained for 4 months and defeated the crème-de-là-crème of worldwide strongman, who had been practicing for years, his win was a shock for strongman experts worldwide,

• Andrew Billings

http://www.ourdailybears.com/baylor-...lifting-record

I'm waiting for video or an official posting, but the word is that he went 805 on the squat, 500 on the benchpress, and 705 on the deadlift for a combined weight of 2010 lbs.

• Stephen Paea/Justin Ernest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Paea

At the NFL Combine, [Paea]recorded 49 repetitions in the 225-pound bench press, the highest since Justin Ernest's 51 reps in 1999.

• Ray Williams, 2013 African-American powerlifting champion

http://www.usapowerlifting.com/resul...ipsResults.pdf

1
Ray Williams
26
Open
162.6
120+
390.0
400.5
-410.0
215.0
222.5
227.5
628.0
317.5
340.0
-365.0
968.0 (NOTE: this number is Ray's 3-lift total in kg)
12
529.3992

Last but not least, there are Asian weightlifters from countries like China that have set Olympic records in their sport:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._weightlifting

That's all for now.

[Skyhilist]

Shit, I don't have the strongest upper body myself

Sorry for being inferior

[cyu]

A partial debunking of Darwinism - or at least "Darwinism" as it is popularized in pro-capitalist media:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evo...of_Cooperation

http://everything2.com/user/seeya/wr...Dangerous+Idea

[the debater]

Shit, I don't have the strongest upper body myself

Sorry for being inferior

You sir, are a disgrace to the proud Aryan lineage. If only Hitler was alive today to give you a good talk on what it means to be a white man. You don't realize how special you are!

[Tim Cornelis]

Similar sharp differences occur in the case of Italian populations separated historically and geographically. Today, Italian-Americans are very close to the national white average in income and education, and the limited data we have seem to put their IQ close to this average as well. This would appear consistent with the IQ figures reported for Italy by Lynn and Vanhanen, which are based on large samples and come in at just above 100. However, there is a notoriously wide economic gap between northern Italy and the south, including Sicily. The overwhelming majority of Italian-Americans trace their ancestry to the latter, quite impoverished regions, and in 2010 Lynn reported new research indicating that the present-day IQ of Italians living in those areas was as low as 89, a figure that places them almost a full standard deviation below either their Northern Italian compatriots or their separated American cousins. Although Lynn attributed this large deficit in Southern Italian IQ to substantial North African or Near Eastern genetic admixture, poverty and cultural deprivation seem more likely explanations.

In his 1978 book American Ethnic Groups, Thomas Sowell included a chapter that summarized the 1920s data on the average IQ scores of various Eastern and Southern European immigrant groups and showed that these were generally quite low, with Slovaks at 85.6, Greeks at 83, Poles at 85, Spaniards at 78, and Italians ranging between 78 and 85 in different studies. A separate analysis of the aptitude scores of World War I draftees published in 1923 came to similar conclusions. These published IQ studies by prominent academics led to widespread belief that the more recent European immigrant groups were much less intelligent than earlier ones and might drag down the national average, a belief that may have contributed to passage of the highly restrictive 1924 Immigration Act.

http://www.theamericanconservative.c...iq-and-wealth/

His 2012 book places the Bulgarian IQ at 92.5 and the Romanian IQ at 91, with the largest and most recent Romanian study coming in at only 88. Just I claimed, these figures tend to be 10 points or more below such northern European peoples as the Germans, Dutch, or Swiss, and I find a strictly genetic explanation of this huge gap far less plausible than the obvious social differences between Europe’s wealthiest and its poorest countries. Lynn claims these very low Balkan IQs are due to substantial African and Middle Eastern ancestry, but I have never heard of this being the case for Balkan Slavs, and would like to see some evidence.

http://www.ronunz.org/2012/08/05/unz...nn-and-nyborg/

This data suggests socio-economic conditions influencing IQs.

Ignoring this, we can assert that it's senseless to use average IQs to judge every member of a group. An African with an IQ of 130 would be regarded as intellectually inferior to a European with an IQ of 80 because the average IQs of their respective races are reversed in terms of height. Racism is an ecological fallacy.

[helot]

In his 1978 book American Ethnic Groups, Thomas Sowell included a chapter that summarized the 1920s data on the average IQ scores of various Eastern and Southern European immigrant groups and showed that these were generally quite low, with Slovaks at 85.6, Greeks at 83, Poles at 85, Spaniards at 78, and Italians ranging between 78 and 85 in different studies. A separate analysis of the aptitude scores of World War I draftees published in 1923 came to similar conclusions. These published IQ studies by prominent academics led to widespread belief that the more recent European immigrant groups were much less intelligent than earlier ones and might drag down the national average, a belief that may have contributed to passage of the highly restrictive 1924 Immigration Act.


http://www.theamericanconservative.c...iq-and-wealth/

It's been a while since i did psychology A-level but we studied the WWI draftee IQ tests that were devised by Robert Yerkes (noted eugenics advocate) et al and it was immediately apparent it was an incredibly flawed study. Its very methodology was dodgy. It was inherently biased towards English speaking Americans. Hell, there was questions about brand mascots ffs! If you didn't actually live in the US for a sizeable amount of time you wouldn't have been able to answer most of the questions.


The fact that right wingers continue to claim these studies were factually based has its origin in their obvious racism and ignorance of the history of intelligence testing.

[MarxSchmarx]

I hate to say it, but I don't think racists, or for that matter anyone who takes racist arguments seriously, are persuaded by logic or science.

You could give them all the evidence in the world that humans are the same basically and they will refuse to believe it.

[Bardo]

3) Whites are superior when it comes to upper-body strength.

Is this a real argument from white nationalists? Talk about unfounded and arbitrary criticism

[Flying Purple People Eater]

How about the fact that they want to segregate human beings based on the amount of melanin in their skin tissue? That's a pretty good one.

The truth of the matter is that, despite all the pseudoscience they spew which you could spend ages debunking (something that has already been done), you don't really need any argument against white nationalists - especially if you're not 'white' (western-European?). It's like asking if there are arguments against someone coming at you with a baseball bat, or arguments against living with an abusive partner.

Whites are superior when it comes to upper-body strength.

Lol nope.

Say that to a 6ft guy from Tonga with an arm like an Ox.

It's been a while since i did psychology A-level but we studied the WWI draftee IQ tests that were devised by Robert Yerkes (noted eugenics advocate) et al and it was immediately apparent it was an incredibly flawed study. Its very methodology was dodgy. It was inherently biased towards English speaking Americans. Hell, there was questions about brand mascots ffs! If you didn't actually live in the US for a sizeable amount of time you wouldn't have been able to answer most of the questions.


The fact that right wingers continue to claim these studies were factually based has its origin in their obvious racism and ignorance of the history of intelligence testing.

Didn't someone make a documentary about this? I seem to remember it from somewhere (i.e. giving obscure American cultural questions to migrants in order to 'gauge their intelligence' being a form of racism).

EDIT: I remembered. It was part of a doco on this famous social experiment.

+ YouTube Video

Incredible how she nails the typical racist conservative American!

[TaylorS]

I tried reasoning with all the racist nimrods over on Reddit. It's impossible, they have convinced themselves that any criticism of their BS is "politically correct Cultural Marxism".

[the debater]

Thanks to everyone who replied. I would like to mention that when I said "shed new light on", I was not implying that these links and arguments had never been used before. I am simply trying to gather them together for this thread, so that people can find them in one place. Some prominent white supremacist/nationalist forums censor intelligent arguments that disprove or contradict neo-nazi myths about racial science, so hopefully this thread can be a refuge for those arguments. Continuing on:

4) Mixed race people are not healthy.

Well, not necessarily. I am not an expert on this subject because my major in college is physics. However, many people, especially Americans, may be familiar with a phenomenon known as the "Hispanic Paradox." This paradox refers to the fact that Hispanic Americans have longer lifespans than white Americans and comparable infant mortality rates, despite higher poverty levels and lower educational attainment:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_761158.html

U.S. Hispanics can expect to outlive whites by more than two years and blacks by more than seven, government researchers say in a startling report that is the first to calculate Hispanic life expectancy in this country.

Health researchers have seen a strong link between poverty, lack of education and life-shortening health problems. Hispanics are disadvantaged in those areas: About 19 percent of Hispanics live at or below the federal poverty level – three times more than whites. As for education, fewer than 13 percent of Hispanics have a college degree, compared to 17 percent of blacks and 30 percent of whites.

To be fair, the article does state that many immigrants who come here are healthy to begin with, as they are physically fit manual laborers. Likewise, it's been said that Hispanics have strong family ties and are less likely to smoke and partake in other similar bad habits. There is obviously more to one's lifespan than genetics, but nevertheless, it doesn't seem as if being mixed-race poses any major health disadvantages. According to the CIA, Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than either the U.S. or Canada:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2091rank.html

[4MyNation]

Their might be a lot of lazy people on welfare, but that's only thanks to fake liberals who allow them to be. Marxism/Communism is a team effort, nobody leeches off anybody.

[Bardo]

^What makes them fake liberals rather than real liberals?

I think it's important for marxists to acknowledge that the welfare state is a symptom of capitalist decay and contradiction. While welfare programs alleviate some pressure on the working class, they're not single handedly inhibiting class consciousness or preventing revolutionary thought. It's just a natural outcome of capitalism, not only in crisis, but by design.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Their might be a lot of lazy people on welfare, but that's only thanks to fake liberals who allow them to be.

I seriously don't think you know anyone on welfare if you think in this brash right-wing logic.

Marxism/Communism is a team effort, nobody leeches off anybody.

Are you implying people on welfare are leeches? What about, you know, capitalists? The people who own the tools of production? The people who make more money off what you create than what you get paid for working under them? The people who are sitting in their luxury yachts and getting their secretaries to promote 'company growth' when an impoverished labourer in Addis Ababa is paid less than a dollar a day for backbreaking work on long hours with no health and safety coverage?

I think those people are the 'leeches' you're looking for, not someone who can barely get by and would probably starve and die if a welfare system wasn't in place. Hell, I wouldn't even have been able to go to the school I did if there was no social safety net and welfare where I was. Honestly, the racist ray-gun derived myth of the welfare queen needs to be slaughtered where it stands. I'm surprised sections the left doesn't jump on this shit more thoroughly.

I'll try and get up some works on dispelling dole myths.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Their might be a lot of lazy people on welfare, but that's only thanks to fake liberals who allow them to be. Marxism/Communism is a team effort, nobody leeches off anybody.

Yeah if only those lazy bastards work for once. It's really easy to get a job, right? Welfare is just for leechers!

Geez, no wonder your organization is CPUSA. I don't cite telly shows often but this from It's Always sunny applies: Oh, get a job? Just get a job? Why don’t I strap on my job helmet and squeeze down into a job cannon and fire off into job land, where jobs grow on little jobbies?!

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Also the term 'Hispanic' is a misnomer. Inhabitants of native America come from many different ethnic groups and backgrounds (there was large ethnic variation throughout pre-Spanish Mexico alone), and this was even more intensified by the entrance of Spanish people and slaves from Africa (which has some of the largest ethnographic variation of any place on earth). So even in the realm of genetics and anthropology that these faux-biologists like to prance around in, they fail miserably at their little game by generalizing millions of different ethnic groups as a single 'other', before attributing their racist mythology to this other and subsequently coming out as a dignified little 'racial realist' for all the modern world to see.

Here's a map by Luca Cavalli to demonstrate the ludicrous notion of a 'Hispanic' person.



Edit: Images don't seem to be working so i'll post a link instead.

Here

[Comrade Jacob]

I hate to say it, but I don't think racists, or for that matter anyone who takes racist arguments seriously, are persuaded by logic or science.

You could give them all the evidence in the world that humans are the same basically and they will refuse to believe it.

Have you ever noticed that the vast majority of people who advocate the idea of superior races are white and surprise surprise the "white-race" just so happens to be the one that is superior? They believe it because they want to feel superior.

[the debater]

5) Whites still have the most creativity of all the races, even if their IQs aren't necessarily superior.

Well, it's true that Western Europe was responsible for the Industrial Revolution. However, to focus solely on this time period in history is deceptive. Even if whites have had the advantage intellectually and technologically for the past two-three hundred years, what about other times in human history? What about advanced non-white civilizations like China, Egypt, India, the Aztecs, Islamic civilization, etc, etc? If whites truly are superior to other races, then we would expect to see white intellectual and scientific domination going back thousands of years, rather than just a couple hundred. But that is not what we see. Indeed, many of the tribes in Europe during the times of Greece and Rome were not considered superior: http://fjor.net/etome/grecoroman/strabo-bi.html

For modern scientific writers are not able to speak of any country north of Ierne, which lies to the north of Britain and near thereto, and is the home of men who are complete savages and lead a miserable existence because of the cold; and therefore, in my opinion, the northern limit of our inhabited world is to be placed there.

-Strabo

Their habits are in part like those of the Celti, but in part more simple and barbaric—so much so that, on account of their inexperience, some of them, although well supplied with milk, make no cheese; and they have no experience in gardening or other agricultural pursuits.

-Strabo, in reference to Britain

Concerning this island [Ireland] I have nothing certain to tell, except that its inhabitants are more savage than the Britons, since they are man-eaters as well as heavy eaters, and since, further, they count it an honourable thing, when their fathers die, to devour them, and openly to have intercourse, not only with the other women, but also with their mothers and sisters; but I am saying this only with the understanding that I have no trustworthy witnesses for it; and yet, as for the matter of man-eating, that is said to be a custom of the Scythians also, and, in cases of necessity forced by sieges, the Celti, the Iberians, and several other peoples are said to have practised it.

-Strabo

They [Gauls] also observe a custom which is especially astonishing and incredible, in case they are taking thought with respect to matters of great concern; for in such cases they devote to death a human being and plunge a dagger into him in the region above the diaphragm, and when the striken victim has fallen they read the future from the manner of his fall and from the twitching of his limbs, as well as from the gushing of the blood, having learned to place confidence in an ancient and long-continued practice of observing such matters.

-Diodorus

From another source:
http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/politics.7.seven.html

Those who live in a cold climate and in Europe are full of spirit, but wanting in intelligence and skill; and therefore they retain comparative freedom, but have no political organization, and are incapable of ruling over others.

-Aristotle

[the debater]

6) The Bell Curve was a legitimate book that strongly showcased racial differences in IQ.

That's not the whole story. While supporters of the 1994 book may point to the statement "Mainstream Science on Intelligence" as evidence that The Bell Curve was legitimate, the statement itself does mention that "Genetically caused differences are not necessarily irremediable." Likewise, there was a medium amount of criticism to go around for Bell Curve: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bel....27s_follow-up

William J. Matthews writes that part of The Bell Curve's analysis is based on the AFQT "which is not an IQ test but designed to predict performance of certain criterion variables". Heckman observed that the AFQT was designed only to predict success in military training schools and that most of these tests appear to be achievement tests rather than ability tests, measuring factual knowledge and not pure ability. He continues:
Ironically, the authors delete from their composite AFQT score a timed test of numerical operations because it is not highly correlated with the other tests. Yet it is well known that in the data they use, this subtest is the single best predictor of earnings of all the AFQT test components. The fact that many of the subtests are only weakly correlated with each other, and that the best predictor of earnings is only weakly correlated with their "g-loaded" score, only heightens doubts that a single-ability model is a satisfactory description of human intelligence. It also drives home the point that the "g-loading" so strongly emphasized by Murray and Herrnstein measures only agreement among tests—not predictive power for socioeconomic outcomes. By the same token, one could also argue that the authors have biased their empirical analysis against the conclusions they obtain by disregarding the test with the greatest predictive power.

Regarding Murray and Herrnstein's claims about racial differences and genetics, the APA task force stated:

There is certainly no such support for a genetic interpretation... . It is sometimes suggested that the Black/ White differential in psychometric intelligence is partly due to genetic differences (Jensen, 1972). There is not much direct evidence on this point, but what little there is fails to support the genetic hypothesis.

Going back to the link from my second argument:

Since the publishing of The Bell Curve, a definitive study has come out of Columbia and Northwestern Universities demolishing the theory that the white/black IQ gap is largely genetically caused. But even at the time The Bell Curve was published, there was no reason to make such a claim. Of the seven major scientific studies on genes, race and IQ, six suggested that genes play no role in the IQ gap between whites and blacks, and only one suggested a genetic cause. Statistical objections can be raised to all seven early studies, but at the very least, The Bell Curve had no grounds whatsoever to imply that the IQ gap is largely genetic.

[aty]

Very easy. Nationalism splits the working class. It makes us workers fight against each other when we infact share the same interests.
Nationalism only serves the capitalists, they can more easily control the working class if we are busy fighting against each other about ridiculous things as race, nations, culture, religion etc.

I have more incommon with my friend from another race who I work with than I have with the rich capitalists from my own race. Only an idiot dont see this.

The constant question to any nationalist should be "Why do you want to split the working class and make us fight against each other so the rich capitalists, financial elite and bankers can exploit us and steal from us more easily"?
This question should just be repeated all over, making them talk about class instead of us being drawn into silly debates about race.