Thread: Impressions of the Socialist Equality Party

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    Default Impressions of the Socialist Equality Party

    Ive been looking ito the Socialist Equality Party, but it looks a bit namby pamby for a slightly more hardcore Trotskyist. What exactly do they stand for, and what are they most know for? Im basically just looking to learn more about this party than whats on wikipedia
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    Welp, their beloved David North is CEO of Grand River Printing & Imaging, which is a non-union shop.
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    The Socialist Equality Party (SEP) are world-historic political bandits. To be brief, they are the descendents of the political line of Gerry Healy, who basically puckered up to Arab nationalism in the interest of lining his pockets. His organization was notorious for literally assaulting political opponents and masquerading as orthodox Trotskyist. Not only that, but they were quick to hail the Ayatollahs in Iran in 1979.

    These days, they're run by David North (who's real name is David Green), who manages a non-union printing shop, which is in line with their claim that labor unions are thoroughly reactionary and must be destroyed. What a coincidence. They're nothing but fucking scabs.

    They also claim that the liberal-backed Civil Rights Movement in the 1960's ended racial oppression in the United States and that the brutal murder of Trayvon Martin had nothing to do with race.

    These days, North masquerades as a scholar defending the legacy of Leon Trotsky from bourgeois and academic slander. When it comes to the class struggle, the Northites are best at flying away. Their organization has receded to the internet in the hopes that they'll somehow build the vanguard that way.

    For more on this, I recommend just doing a search for the SEP/WSWS with the term "cult" to read the endless accounts of political banditry that their organization has taken part in for quite some time. But in my opinion, the Internationalist Group sums up their anti-communism in this article: http://www.internationalist.org/wherewasdavidnorth.html
    The basic ideas of Marxism, upon which alone a revolutionary party can be constructed, are continuous in their application and have been for a hundred years. The ideas of Marxism, which create revolutionary parties, are stronger than the parties they create, and never fail to survive their downfall. They never fail to find representatives in the old organizations to lead the work of reconstruction. These are the continuators of the tradition, the defenders of the orthodox doctrine. The task of the uncorrupted revolutionists, obliged by circumstances to start the work of organizational reconstruction, has never been to proclaim a new revelation – there has been no lack of such Messiahs, and they have all been lost in the shuffle – but to reinstate the old program and bring it up to date.
    - James P. Cannon, 'The Degeneration of the Communist Party'

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    Welp, their beloved David North is CEO of Grand River Printing & Imaging, which is a non-union shop.
    aren't his employees all members of the party? shit is crazy.

    also not to mention he was a leading member of a tendency that gathered info on iraqi communists and passed it on to saddam in exchange for a shit load of cash , resulting in the deaths of said communists.

    but they have a nice website
    Everywhere it is the police who do the whipping and the one in rags who gets whipped. And then the people who sit smugly at their well-laden tables are surprised when someone rocks the table, overturns it, and shatters everything to fragments.
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    They are a ridiculous cult. I've talked to them several times. I started reading their Heritage Lost or whatever it's called but thought sticking pencils in my eyes was more productive. All my information on them comes from the multiple times I've talked to them at demos. Too many times.

    David North is literally the Bourgeoisie.
    He owns the means of production.
    How the fuck are you going to have a Trot, Boss, Chairman, owner?

    The anti union stance is ridiculous.
    They say the Unions are corrupt and need to be immediately disbanded in order to have revolutionary progress. This is an outrageous affront to many of the workers of Michigan whose unions control their pensions and health benefits. The Iron Workers, Bricklayers, Carpenters etc locals are the ones who set the safety standards on the job. Their pension and medical benefits are administrated by union offices. It's not hard to see that Non union construction sites are far more dangerous, far more life threatening. Just count the deaths.

    They're across the board abandonment of all unions is absolutely horrible. It demonstrates a total misunderstanding of the role unions have. Not surprising since there are no Iron workers, Teamsters, Pipe-fitters or Longshoremen that are in the SEP, primarily students from Wayne State and UofM.
    How beneficial to David North that not one union stands up to his scrutiny and he can run his means of production unhindered by pesky organized labour.

    Any look at their history shows that North is no different from the Healyites that they descend from.
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    Every time I see these jerk off, pretentious college kids show up at a labor event I just wish the Sparticist League was there to obnoxiously yell at them (you know since that's all they do)
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    I was deeply irritated by one of their folks telling me I was the vanguard of the revolution while I was on strike. Was walking with a red diaper friend and we were both "yeah we know" - poor guy was thrown off script so bad -

    Don't like being talked down to that way. Proles is dumb, except when we smarter than you. One shouldn't approach a picket line expecting a Trot and Stalinist marching together, but...
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    Grand River Printing began as the money-making print shop for the Workers League (now the SEP) back in the 1970s. It was never a unionized shop, even when the WL was big on union activity and was vehemently calling for a labor party based on the unions. I guess they didn't want to have to worry about The Bulletin not being printed in case of a strike.

    But this is nothing compared to their gangsterism. When the WL/SEP is losing a political argument, the odds are that they will end it by physically attacking whomever it is they are debating. I've seen them do it twice. They also get rather physical with people from other organizations who try to attend their meetings.
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    I had the misfortune of being followed home by a new-ish member of the SEP one day after a coalition meeting. We stood outside my building for nearly 2 1/2 hours and me, being the nice guy that I am, humored him for much of it. I don't know why I did it - guess I thought I could dissuade him from becoming an actual member of that awful party (to no avail).

    He was nice enough, but kind of strange. He'd get this wild, crazy look in his eyes whenever he talked. Scared the shit out of me...
    "Socialist ideas become significant only to the extent that they become rooted in the working class."

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    But this is nothing compared to their gangsterism. When the WL/SEP is losing a political argument, the odds are that they will end it by physically attacking whomever it is they are debating. I've seen them do it twice. They also get rather physical with people from other organizations who try to attend their meetings.
    Lol, yes. I've had them try and get big on me a few times. Although I usually have a "cmon bring it" attitude with them. At a rally or demo you should make sure some guys in hard hats know their union position and their propensity for violence. I've convinced Iron workers to keep an eye on them before. I've also seen IBEW guys basically run them off. Us blue collar guys are more on the ball than some people give us credit for.
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    Lol, yes. I've had them try and get big on me a few times. Although I usually have a "cmon bring it" attitude with them. At a rally or demo you should make sure some guys in hard hats know their union position and their propensity for violence. I've convinced Iron workers to keep an eye on them before. I've also seen IBEW guys basically run them off.
    They seem to like to pick on the small and wiry people.

    They tried getting big with me once. They couldn't get big enough and never tried it again.
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    But this is nothing compared to their gangsterism. When the WL/SEP is losing a political argument, the odds are that they will end it by physically attacking whomever it is they are debating. I've seen them do it twice. They also get rather physical with people from other organizations who try to attend their meetings.
    Allegedly, the Workers' League would also beat up people who tried to leave their little cult. I don't know if the SEP still does that. They also supported a cop strike, supported white racists against "African-American" schools, claimed that the problem with the British SWP was an excess of feminism, never repudiated Wohlforth's comments about queer people and women... seriously, fuck the SEP. Join only if you want to succeed David North as CEO, but be prepared to invent ridiculous stories about CIA spies in order to do so.
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    Does the SEP have a presence outside of the upper Midwest? What type of slogans are they fond of?

    Have never spotted them here, as far as I am aware.
    Last edited by Popular Front of Judea; 27th August 2013 at 09:07.
    That's all very well in practice, but how will it work in theory?

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    David North is literally the Bourgeoisie.
    He owns the means of production.
    How the fuck are you going to have a Trot, Boss, Chairman, owner?
    Friedrich Engels, although he was not a Trot.

    Also I've always found accusations of gangsterism and banditry both strange terms to use even if appropriate.
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    Friedrich Engels, although he was not a Trot.
    Except Engels didn't have members of the Communist League slaving away in his non-union print shop.

    Originally Posted by The Idler
    Also I've always found accusations of gangsterism and banditry both strange terms to use.
    They beat their political opponents up. They beat their former members up. They were financed by bourgeois regimes in the Middle East, and sold Iraqi communists to Saddam, after previously justifying the execution of another group of Iraqi communists. They support cops and white segregationists. How are they not bandits and gangsters?
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    Except Engels didn't have members of the Communist League slaving away in his non-union print shop.
    Engels was never the boss. He refused to be a manager, choosing instead to take a job as a clerk in the mill. After his father died, he tried being a manager for a short time, but ended up selling all the shares he inherited and giving most of the money to the movement.
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    They're across the board abandonment of all unions is absolutely horrible. It demonstrates a total misunderstanding of the role unions have.
    Do you have a link to some of the organization's views on unions?
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    Default Impressions of the Socialist Equality Party

    Do you have a link to some of the organization's views on unions?
    Straight from the horse's mouth pertaining to the RTW law passed during lame duck in Michigan

    http://www.socialequality.com/story/...ight-work”-law

    Edit: I'm not saying unions aren't primarily on the dems side, because most in the states are due to them seeking reformation through collective bargaining but to ditch unions is far more reactionary than empowering the workers.
    Their program espouses the abolishment of trade unions even though their Detroit mayoral candidate is unionized at his job at DWSD (which went on strike last fall, people were terminated immediately, & I doubt Collier was on those picket lines, unlike a handful of Occupy Detroit people)
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    Straight from the horse's mouth pertaining to the RTW law passed during lame duck in Michigan

    http://www.socialequality.com/story/...ork”-law

    Edit: I'm not saying unions aren't primarily on the dems side, because most in the states are due to them seeking reformation through collective bargaining but to ditch unions is far more reactionary than empowering the workers.
    All in all, I don't see what's wrong with the organization's position on unions. In fact, I'd say that it doesn't go far enough, and remains trapped within the framework of enumerating historical and contemporary "betrayals" by the union bosses (when in fact, these actions were no such thing as a betrayal; only those who take occasional fiery rhetoric seriously and do not analyse the basis of unionism can conclude that), while failing to see that indeed unions can win some immediate gains for workers, but more importantly, failing to see what I just mentioned - the inherently class collaborationist position of the union (which doesn't arise from a Trot fantasy about the dreadful "crisis-of-leadership", implying faulty politics or a lack of militancy, though to SEP's credit, they managed to avoid that pitfall).

    What does it mean, "to ditch unions"? What do you think that the position of communist militants should be towards the unions?

    Their program espouses the abolishment of trade unions...
    To quote the text you linked:

    As it enters into struggle against these conditions, the working class will come into ever more direct conflict with the unions. The formation of new organizations of struggle—democratic rank-and-file action committees—must be a central component in the independent political mobilization of the working class in revolutionary struggle against the big business parties and the capitalist system.
    Does this amount to "ditching the unions" or even to support for union busting? I can't see how you could say that. In fact, this is the minimum sensible position on workers', not union bosses', action and escalating class struggle.

    even though their Detroit mayoral candidate is unionized at his job at DWSD (which went on strike last fall, people were terminated immediately, & I doubt Collier was on those picket lines, unlike a handful of Occupy Detroit people)
    Well what does this have to do with the fact that SEP engages in criticism of the unions? I don't think that this can serve as the basis for the charge of hypocrisy, opportunism or whatnot. As I said, and as many communists who do uphold a radical criticism of the unions probably acknowledge, the union is not a bourgeois Trojan horse, and there is no need for communists to avoid union membership (though administrative positions within the bureaucracy...that's something different, but again, this needn't depend on basically moralist arguments), it's a basic collective framework which can in fact provide immediate gains. Are communists to denounce other workers for insisting on these? Hell no.

    Now, what is hugely problematic here is that Mr. North is a cappie running a non-unionized workplace. Does this arise from the previously elaborated view on the unions as "internal" cops of the working class? Yeah, right, he surely urges the workers to form action committees. Against himself.
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    "The proletariat is its struggle; and its struggles have to this day not led it beyond class society, but deeper into it." Friends of the Classless Society

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    Bear with me, I'm doing this from my phone & apps aren't happy with me.

    What does it mean, "to ditch unions"?
    SEP is looking to abolish unions.

    What do you think that the position of communist militants should be towards the unions?
    Since I'm still on the fence as to what classify myself as, I'll just give my personal position. I think there's a lot of bullshit that happens within some unions. I've seen the good & that far outweighs the crap. Living in a state where I can be fired at any time, going to work when sick, harassment from customers, allegations from bosses, threats of release due to health issues they knew of, all of that would be covered under a collective agreement. I sat back & watched the fight between administration & both the grad students (includes foreign students who are grads) as well as the full time & tenure staff & faculty this past year; none of this helped me but profs & grads working for peanuts is BS (this is one of few examples this year alone in observing unions fighting for workers)

    I see unions as a voice within the profession; librarians are unionized. Who would've thunk? But they are if permanent employees.

    Growing up in Detroit, I was able to learn about the bargaining between the UAW as well as the DFT. Due to their voicing their opinion it is now illegal to strike in Michigan. Guess the legislature didn't like that those voices were so loud.

    The SEP aren't union busting (not like that matters in Michigan anymore now that we are RTW) but for a member to be in an anti-union organization (as they are & it states why they are) & gain the benefits of working through a union & run on an organizations platform, how hypocritical!

    SEP is run by North (Green) spouting about worker's rights & revolution but he's prompting reformation when he has someone run for mayor of Detroit. Where's this revolution of the worker when he's managing the worker?

    Now, what is hugely problematic here is that Mr. North is a cappie running a non-unionized workplace. Does this arise from the previously elaborated view on the unions as "internal" cops of the working class? Yeah, right, he surely urges the workers to form action committees. Against himself.
    I'd really like to see his workers go against him. Reviews of working there mention that management is crappy at communicating.

    I guess Van Buren Township will know things are serious when his workers revolt.

    *I tried to answer/explain my thoughts but it's difficult on a phone*

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