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Thread: Impressions of the Socialist Equality Party

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  1. #41
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    The unions I have a problem with though are public sector ones like teachers unions.

    They want high pay and all kinds of benefits for themselves when it is the private sector proletarian stuck paying or it.
    It's not a zero sum game between public and private sector workers. You're forgetting the capitalist class and its managers. Teachers don't take money away from production workers, they are educated professionals that are often poorly paid compared to equivalent skill levels in the private sector. Defending "good jobs" like teachers doesn't harm other workers, too, it helps raise the standard for what people can expect from jobs. This is a matter of class struggle, since capitalists (and the capitalist state) will always try to pay the minimum.
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  3. #42
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    You know I hate capitalism so much, because it is impossible for me and for most people to experience economic, physical, physiological, psychologic, spiritual and emotional progress as long as USA is governed by the traditional capitalist parties (Democrats and Republicans), and at the same time as the leftist parties are so divided. As long as we have in USA a divided left, a left divided into many tendencies.

    But I somehow agree with some of the comments here about The Socialist Equality Party of USA and their main website World Socialist Website. The great majority of people there are not too loving, friendly, and they seem to me too individualists, they don't behave like leftists. There are even elderly people there who claim that they are supporting The Socialist Equality Party of USA, because the current medicare, medicaid health care social programs of USA are being destroyed and privatized. But at the same time, they do support and feel good with some of the things of the US government.

    I think that most of them seem to me, like middle class people, people who are not very desperate and who are not living a life of pain. Because I think that in order to see a real marxist revolution like the Bolshevik Russian Revolution of 1917 people have to be in real pain, real physical and emotional pain. And most of them seem to me that are doing ok in life, like the people of Socialistworker.org, The Green Party and many other reformists elitist leftist parties

    Ive been looking ito the Socialist Equality Party, but it looks a bit namby pamby for a slightly more hardcore Trotskyist. What exactly do they stand for, and what are they most know for? Im basically just looking to learn more about this party than whats on wikipedia
    "All you read and, wear or see and hear on TV is a product begging for your fatass dirty dollar." -Hooker with a Penis
  4. #43
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    [I]n order to see a real marxist revolution like the Bolshevik Russian Revolution of 1917 people have to be in real pain, real physical and emotional pain.

    TL, sorry to be the one to do this, but I have to point out that you're using soft-left *lifestylism* as a way to indict those who you think are 'not too loving, friendly, and [too] [individualistic]'.

    It's a common fallacy -- and even a tactic of antagonism -- to judge revolutionaries according to their lives and lifestyles, and not according to their actual *politics*. (It's comparable to judging a person solely by the work that they do.)

    This line you're continually upholding is actually a *disservice* to revolutionary politics, and you really should *cease* it immediately.

    Also:


    History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle






    ---



    And most of them seem to me that are doing ok in life, like the people of Socialistworker.org, The Green Party and many other reformists elitist leftist parties

    Here you're blurring-together too many political orientations that are *not* parallel, or similar.

    I'm not sectarian, but there *is* a fundamental difference between revolutionary politics, and reformist politics.
  5. #44
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    ckaihatsu: Thanks a lot for pointing that out. You are right, politics is a science, like medical science. A dentist can be unfriendly and at the same time, he can be a great dentist.

    You are right, thanks for reminding me of that. And by the way, I agree with most of the analysis of this forum of the Socialist Equality Party of USA. They have a couple of modern websites, very orderly and informative (http://www.wsws.org/http://www.sep2016.com/ ) but I guess like the other members of Revleft, of this topic. That The Socialist Equality Party of USA, has a great cool informative website, but their own history, and some other problems that they have, like David North being a sort of capitalist, do not make them the best ultra-left radical proletarian party who are ready to overthrow the US capitalist state and replace it with a dictatorship of the workers.

    I think that most SEP members also reject any armed revolution. And according to many Marxists and to even Karl Marx himself, it is very hard to destroy a capitalist state and replace it with a workers socialist state with all corporations nationalized under workers-control, thru regular elections supported by UN and international bourgeoise observers


    TL, sorry to be the one to do this, but I have to point out that you're using soft-left *lifestylism* as a way to indict those who you think are 'not too loving, friendly, and [too] [individualistic]'.

    It's a common fallacy -- and even a tactic of antagonism -- to judge revolutionaries according to their lives and lifestyles, and not according to their actual *politics*. (It's comparable to judging a person solely by the work that they do.)

    This line you're continually upholding is actually a *disservice* to revolutionary politics, and you really should *cease* it immediately.

    Also:


    History, Macro-Micro -- politics-logistics-lifestyle






    ---





    Here you're blurring-together too many political orientations that are *not* parallel, or similar.

    I'm not sectarian, but there *is* a fundamental difference between revolutionary politics, and reformist politics.
    "All you read and, wear or see and hear on TV is a product begging for your fatass dirty dollar." -Hooker with a Penis
  6. #45
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    ckaihatsu: Thanks a lot for pointing that out. You are right, politics is a science, like medical science. A dentist can be unfriendly and at the same time, he can be a great dentist.

    Point taken, though that's not the best example, unfortunately....


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    You are right, thanks for reminding me of that. And by the way, I agree with most of the analysis of this forum of the Socialist Equality Party of USA. They have a couple of modern websites, very orderly and informative (http://www.wsws.org/http://www.sep2016.com/ ) but I guess like the other members of Revleft, of this topic.

    That The Socialist Equality Party of USA, has a great cool informative website, but their own history, and some other problems that they have, like David North being a sort of capitalist, do not make them the best ultra-left radical proletarian party who are ready to overthrow the US capitalist state and replace it with a dictatorship of the workers.

    I've heard the same info about the SEP at other times, too, so there's probably something to it....

    I wouldn't presume to know how that organization might conduct itself in the midst of revolutionary upheaval, though, which is probably right around the corner.... (looking at watch) (grin)

    I think the WSWS is a very good journalistic source, especially since it's reliable and timely, and has a socialist perspective throughout.

    Btw, 'ultra-left' sounds cool as hell, of course, but it's not the best term to use for the meaning you're indicating -- I've done this myself, too, so I'm kind of conscientious about it now. 'Ultra-left' means 'having an unrealistic revolutionary agenda', like expecting the revolution to happen tomorrow, all in one day.



    Used pejoratively, ultra-left generally criticizes positions that are adopted without taking notice of the current situation or of the consequences which would result from following a proposed course. The term is used to criticize leftist positions that, for example, overstate the tempo of events, propose initiatives that overestimate the current level of militancy, or which employ a highly militant tone in their propaganda.

    Ultra-leftism is often associated with leftist sectarianism, in which a socialist current might attempt to put its own short-term interests before the long-term interests of the working class and its allies.[citation needed]

    ---



    I think that most SEP members also reject any armed revolution.

    Hmmmm, I don't know anything around this subtopic, but one can note that if the numbers are great enough there *wouldn't be* any need for armed revolution since such an act brings with it the political price of inherent *substitutionism* (in place of actual greater *mass* participation).



    And according to many Marxists and to even Karl Marx himself, it is very hard to destroy a capitalist state and replace it with a workers socialist state with all corporations nationalized under workers-control, thru regular elections supported by UN and international bourgeoise observers

    So you're implying that the SEP's politics call for workers-state elections to be supported by the UN and international bourgeois observers -- ? That's too far-fetched and really smacks of bullshit.
  7. #46
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    Ckaihatsu: Thanks a lot for your clear-cut explanation about The Socialist Equality Party of the USA and their news website World Socialist Web Site (WSWS). By the way, according to what you said about the nature of ultra-lefttism, far-leftism. I think that maybe The Socialist Equality Party of USA might then be part of the ultra-leftist parties, for their sectarianism. I know that there are many leftist political parties in USA and in other countries, that are social-democrats and not socialists and that use the label of "socialist party" or "communist party" but are really social-democrats and the writers of WSWS and The Socialist Equality Party of USA are very right in their critisism against the socialists and communist parties, and the socialist and communist activists who are in nature social-democrats. So I don't know if The Socialist Equality Party and WSWS are correct in rejecting any union with the fake leftist parties (social-democrats), labeled "pseudo-left" by the leaders of The Socialist Equaliaty Party of USA and the writers of WSWS, and rejecting any union with Socialist Alternative (kshama sawant) and many other parties in the left that are called "socialist party" and "communist party" but are not socialists, communists at all, but more or less "social-democrats".

    Another thing is that I think that real leftist labor parties claim that the only way to overthrow the US government and replace it with a dictatorship of the proletariat is thru an armed war of the oppressed united with the communists against the armed forces of the oppressor ruling class of the US government. But even though the Socialist Equality Party of US, try to stay close to marxism, to orthodox marxist doctrine, they do participate in US elections and win very little votes and will never win any presidential elections, because the US electoral system is rigged, and even if it is not rigged, and even if Karl Marx himself becomes US president thru an election, Karl Marx himself won't be able to destroy the US capitalist state and replace it with a socialist workers-dictatorship. So I don't understand how the people of Socialsit Equality Party of US, try to be close to marxism, by rejecting any union with social-democrats (green party, chris hedges, chomsky, amy goodman, socialist alternative of kshama sawant, etc) but at the same time they try to participate in the bourgeoise electoral system. And authentic marxists should instead think about an armed war against the US exploiters

    Point taken, though that's not the best example, unfortunately....


    How to Remineralize Teeth Naturally & Reverse Tooth Decay

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    I've heard the same info about the SEP at other times, too, so there's probably something to it....

    I wouldn't presume to know how that organization might conduct itself in the midst of revolutionary upheaval, though, which is probably right around the corner.... (looking at watch) (grin)

    I think the WSWS is a very good journalistic source, especially since it's reliable and timely, and has a socialist perspective throughout.

    Btw, 'ultra-left' sounds cool as hell, of course, but it's not the best term to use for the meaning you're indicating -- I've done this myself, too, so I'm kind of conscientious about it now. 'Ultra-left' means 'having an unrealistic revolutionary agenda', like expecting the revolution to happen tomorrow, all in one day.









    ---





    Hmmmm, I don't know anything around this subtopic, but one can note that if the numbers are great enough there *wouldn't be* any need for armed revolution since such an act brings with it the political price of inherent *substitutionism* (in place of actual greater *mass* participation).





    So you're implying that the SEP's politics call for workers-state elections to be supported by the UN and international bourgeois observers -- ? That's too far-fetched and really smacks of bullshit.
    "All you read and, wear or see and hear on TV is a product begging for your fatass dirty dollar." -Hooker with a Penis
  8. #47
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    Ckaihatsu: Thanks a lot for your clear-cut explanation about The Socialist Equality Party of the USA and their news website World Socialist Web Site (WSWS). By the way, according to what you said about the nature of ultra-lefttism, far-leftism. I think that maybe The Socialist Equality Party of USA might then be part of the ultra-leftist parties, for their sectarianism.

    I tend to think of sectarianism as being more *right*ward-oriented, since it, by definition, raises its own organization above other similar ones.


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    This slides right into a much larger topic of how socialist-type organizations should relate to each other, a topic that I'm not qualified to address from my own experience.

    But I wouldn't think of 'ultra-leftism' as being synonymous with 'far-leftism' since they *don't* have the same meaning.



    I know that there are many leftist political parties in USA and in other countries, that are social-democrats and not socialists and that use the label of "socialist party" or "communist party" but are really social-democrats and the writers of WSWS and The Socialist Equality Party of USA are very right in their critisism against the socialists and communist parties, and the socialist and communist activists who are in nature social-democrats.

    Yes, I agree -- not all revolutionary-leftist internal criticisms are simply inter-organizational sectarianism.



    So I don't know if The Socialist Equality Party and WSWS are correct in rejecting any union with the fake leftist parties (social-democrats), labeled "pseudo-left" by the leaders of The Socialist Equaliaty Party of USA and the writers of WSWS, and rejecting any union with Socialist Alternative (kshama sawant) and many other parties in the left that are called "socialist party" and "communist party" but are not socialists, communists at all, but more or less "social-democrats".

    I myself find this to be a rather complicated area since we may not readily know if an organization's particular action (such as supporting a 'left' candidate's campaign for public office) is part of their 'core' politics, or is just a *tactic* to address real-world developments so as to not be abstentionist by default and politically irrelevant (ultra-left).



    Another thing is that I think that real leftist labor parties claim that the only way to overthrow the US government and replace it with a dictatorship of the proletariat is thru an armed war of the oppressed united with the communists against the armed forces of the oppressor ruling class of the US government. But even though the Socialist Equality Party of US, try to stay close to marxism, to orthodox marxist doctrine, they do participate in US elections and win very little votes and will never win any presidential elections, because the US electoral system is rigged, and even if it is not rigged, and even if Karl Marx himself becomes US president thru an election, Karl Marx himself won't be able to destroy the US capitalist state and replace it with a socialist workers-dictatorship. So I don't understand how the people of Socialsit Equality Party of US, try to be close to marxism, by rejecting any union with social-democrats (green party, chris hedges, chomsky, amy goodman, socialist alternative of kshama sawant, etc) but at the same time they try to participate in the bourgeoise electoral system. And authentic marxists should instead think about an armed war against the US exploiters

    Well, 'entryism' into the bourgeois elections *could* be relevant, depending on particulars, and is most often done to gauge popular sentiment and support for revolutionary politics.

    'Armed warfare' would at most be a strategy and/or tactic, always dependent on prevailing circumstances / conditions, while it would also need an appropriate 'exit strategy' and plan for moving the overall revolution forward -- 'domestic' concerns, basically.

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