The Venus Project

[The Idler]

Didn't the Venus Project and the Zeitgeist movement go their separate ways recently? That's what I've heard at least.

Yes they did.

[Sam_b]

Abolition of money and replacing the monetary system with distrubution without payment that is in fact abolition of private porpety has nothing to do with Marxism?

First of all, loaded statement, so poor showing.

Secondly, yes. It is necessary to see Marxism within its entire framework, otherwise it's very easy to pick and choose objects in isolation and say they are 'Marxist', which is what you've done here.

Zeitgeist's idea of economics, abolition of money or not, are not Marxist. This is very simply because they do not either understand or acknowledge that at the root of the economy is human labour, the labour of the working class, and as such it is the workers who have the power to exact fundamental change.

Zeitgeist's economics is based on the idea of "international bankers" creating a superstate that enslaves the rest of the world. This group of 'bankers' create a cycle of wealth by artificial means - so says the Zeitgeist. Marxists, on the other hand, don't understand it like this at all - rather, money is a mediator of social relations between different groups in society, and reflects the cost of creation of commodities. Such money is then reinvested under capitalism in order to make more money, for instance invested in larger factories and systems in order to extract more surplus value from workers. This is not the work of a few 'bankers' at the top of the chain, but rather an entire system, that of capitalism. The concept of a "banker's conspiracy", which Zeitgeist relies on, has its origins in the right-wing, anti-Semitic ZOG and Jewish Conspiracy theories. This isn't Marxism whichever way you look at it.

As for the system of distribution without payment which Zeitgeist/The Venus Project argues for, that isn't particularly Marxist either. Rather than having the resources and distribution at the hands of the working class, Zeitgeist believe that this can be coordinated by a bunch of scientists and a society run by "experts" in that particular field. What is Marxist about this? Not much.

I suggest that rather than cherry-pick some quotes that sound nice to you and say that they've got to be Marxist, you need to actually understand the political and economic argument that Zeitgeist is trying to advance; and actually have an understanding of how capitalism works and what the solution to it is.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Yes they did.

In which case they should be making a whole lot more noise about that, since as Sam_b demonstrates there are those who will conflate the two. I think it would be a terrible shame for a sensible idea like a resource-based economy to be tarnished by sketchy conspiracy-theory shite.

[Sam_b]

In which case they should be making a whole lot more noise about that, since as Sam_b demonstrates there are those who will conflate the two.

I am aware of this, yes, but there has to be a conflation at some point, since the Venus Project's RBE stuff is still advocated (I think, it's certainly advocated by many members) as the solution by Zeitgeist. I'm not suggesting in my posts above that the Venus Project harbours anti-semitic ideas - Zeitgeist does, but it does not - but rather that the Venus Project's answers are not based in Marxism. I use the / because in my analysis of the films, those answers ar eone in the same - created by Venus, and advocated by ZG.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I am aware of this, yes, but there has to be a conflation at some point, since the Venus Project's RBE stuff is still advocated (I think, it's certainly advocated by many members) as the solution by Zeitgeist. I'm not suggesting in my posts above that the Venus Project harbours anti-semitic ideas - Zeitgeist does, but it does not - but rather that the Venus Project's answers are not based in Marxism.

Would you say that the notion of RBEs as a whole are incompatible with Marxism?

[Sam_b]

I think that's the subject for an altogether different thread, my main awareness of RBE comes from the Venus Project's idea of it, which I reject.

[tuwix]

First of all, loaded statement, so poor showing.

Secondly, yes. It is necessary to see Marxism within its entire framework, otherwise it's very easy to pick and choose objects in isolation and say they are 'Marxist', which is what you've done here.

Zeitgeist's idea of economics, abolition of money or not, are not Marxist.

The question was: "Abolition of money and replacing the monetary system with distrubution without payment that is in fact abolition of private porpety has nothing to do with Marxism?"

And answer is: Yes, they have something to do with Marxism.

Secondly, could you quote me when I write that they are Marxist? Because it seems I've never written anything like that.

Thirdly, they're not even pretend to be Marxist. And it is considered strategy. As I wrote, their objective is communism (free distribution of goods without payment) without communist label. Everyone knows that communism isn't very popular idea due to efforts of Lenin and Stalin and bourgeois propaganda.

[TAEHSAEN]

Because I showed, in the link I provided on page one, that Zeitgeist's ideas heavily originate from far-right and anti-semitic movements. Just look at the films using quotes and heaping praise on the likes of Louis McFadden - the anti-semitic Congressman who tried to run for President under the banner of "keep the Jew out of control of the Republican Party!" and regularly gave speeches in the House from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Zeitgeist uses a tonne of his quotes on the economy, but don't mention that his idea of economics come from his belief that the international banking system is a 'Jewish conspiracy'.

Lyndon LaRouche is also quoted there - the leader of a dangerous cult that peddles racist lies day in, day out. Zeitgeist's idea of the ruling class goal of 'one world government' is straight out of these historical and racist organisations and their beliefs around 'ZOG' and so on. What Zeitgeist merely does, it take the word 'Jew' out of the equation, despite the economic and political theory of these ideas absolutely cannot be separated from them.

Don't even get me started on Zietgeist's relationship and links with groups that peddle "9/11 inside job" nonsense and "climate change was invented by scientists" folk like We Are Change.

So no, they have nothing to do with Marxism in the slightest.

Are we talking about the same thing here? I don't quite remember if Zeitgeist used any Louis McFadden quotes, but even if they did, how does that make them anti semetic? "If you find a diamond in the trash, then take it". Even if Louis McFadden is anti semitic, it does not mean that if he says SOMETHING wise once in a while, we should reject that as well. This is a straw man you put forth against TZM.

I'm also appalled by your line

"Zeitgeist's idea of the ruling class goal of 'one world government' is straight out of these historical and racist organisations and their beliefs around 'ZOG' and so on."

Zeitgeist SPECIFICALLY mentions there is NO SUCH THING as one world government, etc. etc. INFACT WE ENCOURAGE a UNITED WORLD with no seperate nations as it is one of the only ways to make a marxist system work. Are we talking about the same thing here?

And 9/11 does not officially take any side on the 9/11 part, the founder, Peter Joseph, does believe 9/11 was an inside job. And after objectively reviewing hundreds of evidence from both sides, I will confidently say that 9/11 was in fact an inside job. Anyone who disagrees has not given equal weight to both sides of the story. Its as simple as that.

""[Zeitgeist believes] climate change was invented by scientists" folk like We Are Change. "

And ONCE AGAIN. ARE WE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME ORGANIZATION HERE? Zeitgeist is a strong advocate for fighting against climate change and we believe this is yet another major draw back of capitalism.

I'm sorry sir, but you simply have no idea what zeitgeist is about do you?

In a nutshell, Zeitgeist / RBE is Marxism with a heavy focus on technology and the scientific method.

[TAEHSAEN]

First of all, loaded statement, so poor showing.

Secondly, yes. It is necessary to see Marxism within its entire framework, otherwise it's very easy to pick and choose objects in isolation and say they are 'Marxist', which is what you've done here.

Zeitgeist's idea of economics, abolition of money or not, are not Marxist. This is very simply because they do not either understand or acknowledge that at the root of the economy is human labour, the labour of the working class, and as such it is the workers who have the power to exact fundamental change.

Zeitgeist's economics is based on the idea of "international bankers" creating a superstate that enslaves the rest of the world. This group of 'bankers' create a cycle of wealth by artificial means - so says the Zeitgeist. Marxists, on the other hand, don't understand it like this at all - rather, money is a mediator of social relations between different groups in society, and reflects the cost of creation of commodities. Such money is then reinvested under capitalism in order to make more money, for instance invested in larger factories and systems in order to extract more surplus value from workers. This is not the work of a few 'bankers' at the top of the chain, but rather an entire system, that of capitalism. The concept of a "banker's conspiracy", which Zeitgeist relies on, has its origins in the right-wing, anti-Semitic ZOG and Jewish Conspiracy theories. This isn't Marxism whichever way you look at it.

As for the system of distribution without payment which Zeitgeist/The Venus Project argues for, that isn't particularly Marxist either. Rather than having the resources and distribution at the hands of the working class, Zeitgeist believe that this can be coordinated by a bunch of scientists and a society run by "experts" in that particular field. What is Marxist about this? Not much.

I suggest that rather than cherry-pick some quotes that sound nice to you and say that they've got to be Marxist, you need to actually understand the political and economic argument that Zeitgeist is trying to advance; and actually have an understanding of how capitalism works and what the solution to it is.

Ok. You are WAY OVERBOARD touchy about the subject of anti-semitism aren't you (seeing how you mention it in EVERY POST you make).

So tell me, if I claim that Israel is committing apartheid against the Palestinians, would you call me antisemitic as well? 0_0

NO PART of Zeitgeist is antisemitic dude. I have absolutely no idea why you get such ideas. Just because they might have used a quote or two from antisemitic people doesn't make the whole organization antisemitic.

And no. Their concept of economy ISN'T based on "international bankers" or whatever the hell you call it.

Its based on the concept that everything on earth is common heritage of all human beings.

Please do your research before you attempt to smear something you have 0 idea about.

[Sam_b]

And answer is: Yes, they have something to do with Marxism.

You didn't read what I said at all, did you? You know, that bit where I said it's impossible to cherry-pick what is considered Marxism and there is a need to see concepts within the framework of Marxism itself? It's akin to saying having disdain for religion is 'Marxist' because he wrote on it once - entirely irrelevant unless one sees it within Marxism as a whole. If something has something to do with Marxism, it must be in essence, Marxist, right?

[Q]

Zeitgeist Movement / Venus Project is DEFINITELY a branch of Marxism, no question about it.

Oh? In what way do they scientifically analyse society in order to understand it and plan political strategies to work towards the revolutionary self-emancipation of the working class to liberate humanity from the rule of capital?

They DO in fact have a transition plan, but its not nearly detailed enough.

Could you link me to it? I have been on their website quite a few times yet somehow always missed this.

On another note: Didn't the Zeitgeist movement and the Venus Project break up some time back? Why are you still mentioning the Zeitgeisters then, as it is off topic?

Most importantly, Zeitgeist Movement is EXACTLY the same as Marxism, except that we believe that the BEST way to distribute resources is to use the scientific method to do so (if using computers to do so is the most efficient way, then so be it).

Presuming that by 'we' you're referring to yourself as a Zeitgeister, I don't see how Marxists would be opposed to that. In fact, Revleft user Paul Cockshott co-wrote a book on the subject of computers and socialist planning a while back.

We just emphasize technology so much, because it is essential in eliminating scarcity and maintaining high standards of living for everyone.

If true communism does came to being in the future (which of course, we all believe it will), it would actually look a lot like the Resource Based Economy because technology is what will liberate people from slave labor and ensure abundance for everyone.

Again, no fundamental disagreement.

We just differ in a few minor details

I don't think the differences are as minor as you make it out to be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't work together where possible, but we shouldn't smooth over these differences but debate them. Just to summarize: Marxists aim for radical democracy and political working class hegemony, the Zeitgeisters just seem to focus on utilizing computers and burning money.

[Sam_b]

but even if they did, how does that make them anti semetic?

Wow. You have obviously ignored everything I said in my posts then. Allow me to quote you, emphasis mine (you even quoted them yourself!):

Zeitgeist uses a tonne of his quotes on the economy, but don't mention that his idea of economics come from his belief that the international banking system is a 'Jewish conspiracy'.

Lyndon LaRouche is also quoted there - the leader of a dangerous cult that peddles racist lies day in, day out. Zeitgeist's idea of the ruling class goal of 'one world government' is straight out of these historical and racist organisations and their beliefs around 'ZOG' and so on. What Zeitgeist merely does, it take the word 'Jew' out of the equation, despite the economic and political theory of these ideas absolutely cannot be separated from them.

The economic theories advocated by McFadden cannot be separated from his anti-Semitism, as his theory originates in the ideas perpetuated by the Protocols of the Elders of Zion: namely, that there is an elite Jewish conspiracy which runs the world and controls the world flow of money. As I pointed out, Zeitgeist's theory merely changes the Jewish conspiracy to a banking conspiracy of a few elites. Now, I'm sure I don't have to tell you about the history of anti-semitism with regards to 'Jewish bankers' do I? Even if I don't, the whole understanding of Zeitgeist's theory comes from a very right-wing and bigoted ideology, that ideology which advocated policy that was entirely inseparable from its anti-semitism.

it does not mean that if he says SOMETHING wise once in a while, we should reject that as well. This is a straw man you put forth against TZM.

We should reject his political and economic theory because it is hopelessly intertwined with anti-semitism. Though Zeitgeisters are very used to having to take this line in an attempt to separate themselves from the backgrounds they take their theories from. Let's hear what Peter Joseph says, straight from a youtube speech:

If I find someone who’s in the KKK who has a great perspective on global finance, I’m not going to dismiss them just because they’re a racist and a bigot, I’m going to read what it is. I don’t dismiss anybody because of their beliefs because I understand that beliefs are a product of cultural conditioning.

It is nigh-on impossible to see the politics of the far-right in isolation of their anti-semitic worldview. Zeitgeisters just don't get this.

Zeitgeist SPECIFICALLY mentions there is NO SUCH THING as one world government, etc. etc. INFACT WE ENCOURAGE a UNITED WORLD with no seperate nations as it is one of the only ways to make a marxist system work. Are we talking about the same thing here?

I didn't mention that Zeitgeist thinks there is one world government in place, rather that Zeitgeist believes steps are being made to make this happen. Don't believe me? Watch Part III "Don't Mind the Men Behind the Curtain", which claims that there is a conspiracy to incorporate the US, Canada and Mexico into a 'North American Union' which they then explicitly say is a step towards a one-world government. Funnily enough, you guys have been called out on this stuff before, which is then why Zeitgeist updated the film in 2010 removing this speculation.

INFACT WE ENCOURAGE a UNITED WORLD with no seperate nations as it is one of the only ways to make a marxist system work. Are we talking about the same thing here?

A 'united world' is not a 'united government' and as I explain in a subsequent post, you don't encourage a Marxist system at all.

Ok. You are WAY OVERBOARD touchy about the subject of anti-semitism aren't you (seeing how you mention it in EVERY POST you make)

Are revolutionaries not supposed to be 'touchy' about prejudice against Jewish people, which has resulted in Jews being persecuted for centuries? As I've argued, Zeitgeist's economics are lifted directly from anti-semitic movements. All you've done is attempted to deflect away from this, and now you've got to the point you're accusing me of being 'overboard' because you simply cannot weasel your way out of it.

So tell me, if I claim that Israel is committing apartheid against the Palestinians, would you call me antisemitic as well? 0_0

Strawmen of all strawmen. There's a big difference between Jews and Israelis.I don't think that everyone involved in Zeitgeist is anti-semitic, but Zeitgeist's politics come from anti-semitic, racist sources. Sources which cannot be separated from them as they are so entrenched.

NO PART of Zeitgeist is antisemitic dude. I have absolutely no idea why you get such ideas.

Yes you do. In fact, you quoted them in your previous post and tried to dismiss them by saying that people like McFadden could say something alright once in a while. The source I quoted, plus my analysis, shows the connection. You know exactly where I "got the ideas", unless you simply quote posts without reading them (and judging by your response, without actually tackling them).

Just because they might have used a quote or two from antisemitic people doesn't make the whole organization antisemitic.

For those who are reading this, let's recap. In the space of two posts TAEHSAEN has tried to explain Zeitgeist's line away by:

1. Questioning if McFadden is actually anti-semitic.
2. Saying that he has no idea "where I got such ideas"
3. Now directly contradicting himself a sentence before by saying "just because they've quoted some anti-semitic people..."

It's clear TAEHSAEN is desperately flapping to try and make the huge problem of Zeitgeist's politics go away. To tackle his point three, well, I already did so, but seeing as I don't think he reads what I say and actually thinks about it, I'll break it down into simplistic terms:

Point One: McFadden, who is quoted approvingly in the films, and at length. The most important quote Zeitgeist holds up is this:

A world banking system was being set up here… a superstate controlled by international bankers acting together to enslave the world for their own pleasure…”


This is quite neatly one of the major pillars of TZM thought.

Point Two: McFadden's politics, and indeed this line, comes from a book called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The book is a Russian forgery used to try and spread anti-semitism, and argues that there is a world conspiracy, where Jews aim to establish a global movement by being an elite that controls international finance, banks and money. La Rouche, who is also quoted in the films, noises up these sources as well.

Point Three: This is where the origin of One World Government comes from. The elite conspiracy nonsense was first and foremost put in place in this book. The point of the book is that this theory cannot be separated from the idea that it is a Jewish conspiracy.

Point Four: The idea of 'Jewish bankers' controlling wealth has been around for centuries, is explicitly tied with anti-semitism and is concretised in the book. The important thing is that even if you remove the term 'Jewish', the theory itself is intrinsically tied to the idea of a Jewish elite - removing references to Jews does not stop it being a political and economic theory borne out of racism.

Ergo, Zeitgeist's assertions are intrinsically tied to racist sources advocated by anti-semites with an agenda against the Jews. This does not mean all Zeitgeisters are anti-semites, but their entire theory originates from it.

Please do your research

So watching the films and reading articles isn't 'research'? You haven't been able to argue against anything I've said, just provided bluster and attempts to divert.

[Sam_b]

That doesn't mean we shouldn't work together where possible

If there's one thing I'm certain on, it is that revolutionaries should certainly not work alongside the Zeitgeist movement and it should be treated as an opposing ideology.

[Q]

If there's one thing I'm certain on, it is that revolutionaries should certainly not work alongside the Zeitgeist movement and it should be treated as an opposing ideology.

Opposing? That would be a little strong. Sure, there are many lunatics driven to this, like the conspiracy scene. But the fact is that there no ideology worth speaking off besides that Peter Joseph is making films about. As such this 'movement' (such as it is) consists of all kinds layers.

But even if it does consist purely of reactionaries, that still does not exclude debate. Quite the contrary.

[Sam_b]

As I've tried to demonstrate in posts above, Zeitgeist's ideology is rooted in anti-semitism. This is another useful post from SU

[tuwix]

If something has something to do with Marxism, it must be in essence, Marxist, right?

No, and you haven't read what I wrote. You've written that they (The Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement) "have nothing to do with Marxism". And you were wrong and in indirect way you've admited that,

It seems you have very negative emotions towards the Venus Project and this is why you don't want notice that quoting of anti-semites doesn't mean being antisemites. I can quote nazists, fascists, stalinists or monarchists for many different paurposes, but it doesn't automatically make one of them.

[Sam_b]

It seems you have very negative emotions towards the Venus Project and this is why you don't want notice that quoting of anti-semites doesn't mean being antisemites. I can quote nazists, fascists, stalinists or monarchists for many different paurposes, but it doesn't automatically make one of them.

I've dealt with this point not only once now, but twice, when I've argued that the ideology advocated by Zeitgeist cannot be separated from anti-semitism.

So if you're not going to read, and instead rely on strawmen and one-liner analysis for TZM apologism, then I'm pretty much done dealing with you.

[tuwix]

Then I quote someone and I ask few questions. Quote:


"Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew.

What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money."

Is it antisemitic statement? Who did write it? Will you be consisitent and you will be oposing ideology represeneted by him?

I hope you answer without any evasions.

[Sam_b]

Is it antisemitic statement? Who did write it? Will you be consisitent and you will be oposing ideology represeneted by him?

I hope you answer without any evasions.

You don't fucking get it, do you? I hate to repeat myself again for idiots, but listen, and actually process what I'm telling you.

I've argued that the ideology advocated by Zeitgeist cannot be separated from anti-semitism

Let that sink in for a minute. I've demonstrated that the origins of Zeitgeist theory come straight out of the Protocols, in which anti-semitism is used to necessitate the argument within.

Quoting Marx on the Jewish question there doesn't change this. You know why champ? Because Marx's economic theory is not based on anti-semitism nor is it a factor in how said economic theory comes into being. If you still fail to understand, and I have provided plenty arguments in about half a dozen posts now, centring on the main argument that you cannot separate the anti-semitism of the Protocols as they are intertwined, then that's your problem.

I am not explaining myself again to you on this point.

[tuwix]

Because Marx's economic theory is not based on anti-semitism nor is it a factor in how said economic theory comes into being.

As well, as the Project Venus economy theory called the RBE. But you are very inconsistent in both cases.

And I've read what you've written and just strongly disagree with it in some cases.