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Seriously how much more is it going to take?
The US is really really unique in that despite all the pains, heartaches and troubles it's workers go through there is hardly any large scale mass organization of people around the country against the situation we face. It's the opposite in Europe, Latin America and Asia where people face tanks, rubber bullets and hoses protesting the austerity, filthy wages and government corruption. The French shut down whole cities, the Greeks aren't afraid to confront the riot squads and even in China protests can amass to several people.
We had the Occupy movement which started strong but ended up being an unorganized mess and was co-opted by the media and then ridiculed as a hippie homeless haven and not a serious movement.
Just what is it in the US psyche that has us so capitive to this status quo? Is it that we are all too scared to lose the little we have? Is it that we like thinking about inducing mass social change but are waiting for the guy next to us to do something?
The government at this stage declares that it cares more about big business interests than our interests, it spies on us and brazenly admits it, corporations wage slave us and tell us how to manage our money, News men say teachers make too much money, austerity measures abound, unemployment high, wages keep shrinking in lieu of COL in major cities, highest prison population in the world, private prisons distort the sentencing laws so it's easier to go to jail for trivial shit, etc. etc etc.
Just what is it? Just what the hell is it? Too many distractions? Fear? Life is not that bad? Too much positive thinking? People are finding ways to work their way around the recession? People pin too much of their hope on electoral politics and "awareness" campaigns?
And for the record, this isn't an Americans are too stupid to rebel thread. This is a thread to understand just what keeps Americans from not doing anything that will affect real change or teeter the status quo?
Why do we accept our situation more so than say the European, the Asian, the Latin American, etc? I truly want to know your insights and theories on this.
My answer?
Liberals. They can range from fairly conservative to being somewhat left, but even if they sympathize with anarchism or communist or whatever, they always have a set of opinions that make it nearly impossible for revolutionaries to convince them, because they see themselves as "the rational middle ground".
I think the US has this problem more than many other countries.
"I'm not interested in indulging whims from members of your faction."
Seeing as this is seen as acceptable by an admin, from here on out when I have a disagreement with someone I will be asking them to reference this. If you want an explanation of my views, too bad.
I share your frustration, however this certainly isn't solely an American problem. Every developed country is the same, and I agree that it's probably because they're too scared to lose what little capitalism has bequeathed to them. Essentially, the middle classes have been bought off and the rest of the proletariat have been trained to aspire to middle class status. This has dealt a death blow to political radicalism.
"Marx's goal is leisure, not labor. The best reason for being a socialist, apart from annoying people you happen to dislike, is that you detest having to work. Marx thought that capitalism had developed the forces of production to the point at which, under different social relations, they could be used to emancipate the majority of men and women from the most degrading forms of labor. What did he think we would do then? Whatever we wanted. If, like the great Irish socialist Oscar Wilde, we chose simply to lie around all day in loose crimson garments, sipping absinthe and reading the odd page of Homer to each other, then so be it. The point, however, was that this kind of free activity had to be available to all. We would no longer tolerate a situation in which the minority had leisure because the majority had labor." - Terry Eagleton
I do think that while liberalism helped during the golden age of capitalism to raise living standards during the 20th century, in this century it is a block on the masses to really do anything about their lot.
I don't know if it is true but Chris Hitchens once said that liberalism is looked at with some disdain in England (And I am sure the world) because it seems like a position that tries to have it's cake and it eat too. Liberals will create the illusion of their being these two "extremes" that operate as two sides of the same coin and that "rationality" and a moral middle ground, a pragmatism must prevail in the end.
They say go out there and protest and face the police but get pissed off when ever someone fights back at police brutality. Do they think the State is benevolent? That they will just sit there and let you protest them without consequences?
But you many have a point, the huge insistence that liberals = left in this country sure stifles real debate. Leftists have been amputated from the political discourse and so the real debate is between liberal (center) and right wing.
Because the American working class lacks any sort of qualified revolutionary leadership, and has for many decades. Parties that consist of 30 people who hold up signs saying "CAPITALISM SUCKS" don't count, either.
But let it be known that I don't agree with this stereotyping of Americans as totally complacent. Most people I know are fully aware that the situation in this country is terrible, in fact I hesitate to think of a single person I know who won't admit the nation is in awful shape. They just lack the previously mentioned leadership to provide them with the correct Marxist explanations, so their frustrations manifest themselves in reformist or reactionary ways, and the few who do achieve some kind of revolutionary consciousness fall in with insignificant, fragmented parties with all the wrong strategies and tactics.
Liberalism is winning over the frustrated workers not because our workers are lazy or stupid or complacent, because it is one of the most organized ideological forces in this country. The Democratic Party pumps loads of political and financial capital into channeling social discontent against their own political enemies, as do the Republicans, although both parties appeal to a different stratum of the working class. Just look at how much manpower and money the Democrats are putting into turning Texas into a blue state. When was the last time you saw communists doing something like that?
What we need is real leadership that will attach itself to the working class, not isolated intellectuals as we mostly have now. Don't worry so much about numbers at first, worry about theory and action. If you build the correct programme, you will see results, and people will come to you then.
It's similar in my state (Serbia), but maybe that's just a subjective opinion everyone has about the movement in their country.
E.g. we had a comic in a popular daily paper couple of years ago about how in France milions of people are protesting because there was a tax increase on croissants, and in Greece because their 16th salary was abolished, and how in Serbia there is no milk, oil or salaries at all but we're just saying "eh, whatcha gonna do"
The economical subjection of the man of labor to the monopolizer of the means of labor lies at the bottom of servitude in all its forms, of all social misery, mental degradation, and political dependence. (General rules of IWMA)
Imposed communism would be the most detestable tyranny that the human mind could conceive. And free and voluntary communism is ironical if one has not the right and the possibility to live in a different regime, collectivist, mutualist, individualist- as one wishes, always on condition that there is no oppression or exploitation of others. (Malatesta)
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I think you're ignoring some of the amazing periods of struggle in recent American history. You had the Oakland Commune, the huge G8 protests in Seattle, some great May Day rallies, the Chicago G8 summit had to move for fear of civil unrest etc.
I wrote a big paragraph but upon reading back it was pretty much gibberish and I can't figure out a way to convey the potential for struggle that I see when I see things like the Chicago teachers rallies, the support for foreclosed homes and the unionisation of Walmart workers. What I will say is that those movements in the past such as Occupy weren't labour movements they were activist movements and it's labour that is the most powerful force on the planet.
Modern democracy is nothing but the freedom to preach whatever is to the advantage of the bourgeoisie - Lenin
What's it going to take?
One word: bullets.
It's going to take a crowd of activists getting shot at by a troupe of either riot cops or national guard. Up until now they've been content with just pepperspray, rubber bullets and tazers.
But eventually they'll resort to live ammunition. That is when shit is going to hit the fan.
Re: Seriously how much more is it going to take?
That's happened plenty of times is US history. Remember the Kent State Massacre?
I think it's a mistake trying to look for a magic bullet answer. There are many factors.
There's the fact that the US is the empire and there's such a high level of nationalism that comes with that.
There's the fact that the US pretty much has a permanent underclass: African Americans. The system of white privilege is this country leaves a deeply divided working class. I think this is key. When you look at US history, any time there has been a strong Black freedom movement we've seen gains for the working class as a whole. As a reaction, the state had done everything in it's power till destroy these movements.
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Too long have the workers of the world waited for some Moses to lead them out of bondage. He has not come he never will come. I would not lead you out if I could for if you could be led out, you could be led back again. -Eugene V. Debs
I believe John Stienbeck summed it up well with
"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires"
The vast majority of people still think the system is workable and that the people who are negatively effected by it are only suffering due to personal choices rather than systematic faults. While that hope/prospect of success remains people are unlikely to oppose the system.
The situation is not unique for the US. In many European countries the working class faces similar challenges. In the Netherlands for example, we have very little tradition of mass organisation outside the traditional stuff like unions and parliamentary parties.
It is up to communists to fight for such organisation. The working class as a class is not a spontaneous product of capitalist society, on the contrary. Mass organisations that do exist, often find their roots in communist attempts in the past, but became bureaucratised and part of the system.
Alas, the root cause of our class weakness needs to be found in the existing left: We face a crisis ourselves, sect ridden as the far left is, each group working as small "company" trying to conquer some "marketshare" in the working class movement by their "unique selling points".
What we need is a revolution within the revolutionary left: Only if we take up the task of organising our class as a class can we take up the challenge of political power. But for that we need to unite around the principles of democracy, internationalism and the independence of our class, guided by an accepted programme ... It's a simple idea, yet so hard to achieve.
I think, thus I disagree. | Chairperson of a Socialist Party branchMarxist Internet Archive | Communistisch Platform
Working class independence - Internationalism - Democracy
Educate - Agitate - Organise
I agree with Q, we really need to look at ourselves and then try to make a revolution.
At the same time what are you talking about? Greek people are not afraid? I've been making the same questions to myself: Why isn't Greece making any progress? You might see riots in Athens and other southern places but generally in north Greece there is little things going on.
Because there is no organization within the communist organizations. People say:
'We will make a revolution, but who's gonna start it? MEEE???' Ummm yes you with the help of other people that belong to the same organization as you do.
Simple enough I believe.
The ability of the ruling class to hoodwink the working class has to be admired. The words 'Communism' and 'Socialism' have been turned into precepts of horror and hatred. They have linked these words with the horrors created by THEIR system; capitalism.
It has replaced religion. Try to improve your conditions and you will go to hell (communism)
The American working class see no alternative, they have never been presented with the REAL idea of communism. This has not been helped by people claiming to be 'communist' yet supporting the likes of Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin.
Such people need to stop the confusion. It is delaying the day of emancipation.
We face a crisis of organization all our traditional organizations have been taken over by careerist elements that will fight tooth and nail to keep the status quo and would gladly sell the clothes off our backs to keep on the table of the bosses.
You are entering the vicinity of an area adjacent to a location. The kind of place where there might be a monster, or some kind of weird mirror...
We also need to beyond our "traditional organizations." Not that we shouldn't learn from the past, but being stuck on the Leninist vanguard form, the anarcho-syndicalist form, etc. instead of looking at our own history and conditions is a mistake. Most self-proclaimed revolutionaries know more about the Russian Revolution or the Spanish Civil War than they do about the American Revolution or US Civil War.
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Economic Left/Right: -10.00
Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.67
http://www.politicalcompass.org
Too long have the workers of the world waited for some Moses to lead them out of bondage. He has not come he never will come. I would not lead you out if I could for if you could be led out, you could be led back again. -Eugene V. Debs
Correct Programme =/= Leadership
The life we have conferred upon these objects confronts us as something hostile and alien.
Formerly Virgin Molotov Cocktail (11/10/2004 - 21/08/2013)
I think even this opinion that americans are a mass of people not doing anything to rebel, held by americans, hampers americans from rebelling because it is false. There are revolts and rebellions quite often but I'm not going to say that any one of them or all of them together are an awesome showing of revolution for obvious reasons and I find that to be an unrealistic expectation anyways. Are we talking about mass clashes or cloak and dagger sabotage because there is quite a lot of the sabotage.
"whatever they might make would never be the same as that world of dark streets and bright dreams"
http://youtu.be/g-PwIDYbDqI
US workers have a very long way to go down, economically, before they will engage in any revolutionary struggle. There is no starvation, no mass shootings, no assassinations of political opponents. These things do occur in countries occupied by the U.S., but the media is now controlled so that very little of this reality gets through to the working class.
And, democratic change is still possible in the U.S. even though it is glacially slow. Obama is now on television apologizing for the Trayvon Martin verdict. Fifty years ago Nixon would have said Martin's death was a victory for law and order. The current explanation for capitalism is that there is no alternative (Thatcher.) Therefore, capitalists are sorry for the current conditions, they apologize for them. From domination to apology. I think the same cultural concept applies in politics as well as economics--sort of the base, superstructure idea.
But even more important is that the working class, as a class, is disappearing and is being transformed into a consuming class. The last historical working class will be those in the third world who now manufacture the goods purchased in the West. Instead of working to live we will live to "work" or live for our "passion," as they say now.
But that is a long way off. I agree with a previous poster who said it is up to the communists to describe the direction humanity is going, to describe the "line of march" as Marx and Engels said. The problem is that communists are almost invisible in the U.S. Even Angela Davis has renounced communism and now calls herself a socialist.
Is it possible that the next liberation movement, after race, sex, gender, will be communism? We need to March! Communist Hundred People March on Washington!! Celebrate Marx's 200 birthday in 2018. Demand that our voices be heard.
I never meant for even any sort of massive violent revolt but outrage like what we've seen about Treyvon over the wages and living standars we're faced with.
I mean how much further do people have to sink?
What a lazy excuse of yours! My Aunt is a typical liberal and I cut her short of her positions every time I hear them. All it takes is vigilance from each and every single one of us my friend. Don't bother yourself about whether or not you are a comfortable person to be around.
Last edited by Workers-Control-Over-Prod; 20th July 2013 at 00:27.
"It is necessary for Communists to enter into contradiction with the consciousness of the masses. . . The problem with these Transitional programs and transitional demands, which don't enter into any contradiction with the consciousness of the masses, or try to trick the masses into entering into the class struggle, create soviets - [is that] it winds up as common-or-garden reformism or economism." - Mike Macnair, on the necessity of the Minimum and Maximum communist party Program.
"You're lucky. You have a faith. Even if it's only Karl Marx" - Richard Burton
