Where are separatist feminists on the political spectrum?

[Craig_J]

Where would you place seperatist feminists on the political spectrum? Are they left wing as they're trying to achieve something very radical for the liberation of women and certainy going against the traditional structure? Or are on the right becausethey're trying to sgeregate the sexes, and in some, but not all, instances claiming they're better off without me for good.

By the way, I don't consider feminism an opposing ideology, indeed I'm a femninist myself and believe that many of us are. But couldn't really see any other topic area to put it in!

[Red Flag Waver]

I think they are clearly left wing, for the reasons you mentioned. Whether you agree with them or consider their strategy effective is another matter.

[Blake's Baby]

Are seperatist feminists real?

[Vercingetorix]

They're a unique form of fascism. Any form of ideology that preaches about an other is fascism. Any political ideology that rejects pluralism is fascism.

In this case, the other is not the semites, or the blacks, but men. It is identical to patriarchy but the gender of the oppressor and the pastiche it is dressed in has changed.

[Skyhilist]

I don't think that segregation based on things that someone has no control over should ever be considered left wing. After all, how is segregating based on sex any better than segregating based on race.

Anyways I doubt there are a significant number of "separatist femenist as it should be pretty damn obvious that society would die out without both sexes.

[Vanilla]

I don't think that segregation based on things that someone has no control over should ever be considered left wing. After all, how is segregating based on sex any better than segregating based on race.

Anyways I doubt there are a significant number of "separatist femenist as it should be pretty damn obvious that society would die out without both sexes.

I think that separatist feminists argue that they should just get sperm donations or whatever the latest technology is regarding that stuff.

Or they could just be like those mythological Amazon women who meet with men once a year to reproduce.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Separatist feminism is, in my opinion, a highly reactionary and twisted form of radical second-wave feminism. It isn't so much a tendency as it is a description for a collection of women in the feminist movement from the 60s and 70s who took the rhetoric of the late New Left and took it to an illogical extreme.

They're basically the reason for the 'feminist sex wars' and the eventual development of third-wave feminism.

[#FF0000]

I don't think that segregation based on things that someone has no control over should ever be considered left wing. After all, how is segregating based on sex any better than segregating based on race.

Basque nationalists and the Black Panthers aren't left wing now guys gubgubgubgugbugbgub.

They're a unique form of fascism. Any form of ideology that preaches about an other is fascism. Any political ideology that rejects pluralism is fascism.

In this case, the other is not the semites, or the blacks, but men. It is identical to patriarchy but the gender of the oppressor and the pastiche it is dressed in has changed.

lmao

1) Men aren't an "other" here. Society is patriarchal and male-dominated.
2) That isn't remotely close to what fascism is anyway.

I don't think separatism (what I know of it) is a good idea, but holy shit people lets try to think and only post things that aren't completely foolish rather than just slap at keyboards in indignation over a thing probably no one here has ever read a thing about.

[Vercingetorix]

Basque nationalists and the Black Panthers aren't left wing now guys gubgubgubgugbugbgub.

Basque nationalists desire an independent state, not an ethnically pure one. The old black panthers desired a state which didn't murder their children.

I *have* read about feminist seperatism. It seeks to replace patriarchy with matriarchy. It's keeping the structure of our current society, but making men second class citizens instead of women.

What feminist separatists desire is to live in a society where men do not exist.

It's a kind of gender-based fascism which seeks to elevate women as the matriarchs, rather than a system which abolishes such power structures.

While some advocates of feminist separatism would disagree with my statements, that is what their kind of separatism is.

We have no patience for fascists here, whether they be white separatists or "feminist" separatists.

Those who do not believe in a plural society are by their very definition NOT left wing.

[#FF0000]

I *have* read about feminist seperatism. It seeks to replace patriarchy with matriarchy. It's keeping the structure of our current society, but making men second class citizens instead of women.

Then you'd have no problem presenting a source to back this statement up, then? Right? I'd really be interested to see it, especially considering that a lot of these separatists only see it as a tactic rather than a political stance, and that I've never actually heard of any feminist separatist call for the establishment of an independent state or anything like what you're describing.

Basque nationalists desire an independent state, not an ethnically pure one. The old black panthers desired a state which didn't murder their children.

The old black panthers were still black nationalists. Beyond them, there were a lot of black nationalist groups supported by communists at one time that literally called for a black state to be established in the South. Were these movements "fascist" as well?

[DasFapital]

this sounds like another internet only phenomenon like anarcho-capitalism or third worldism

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I think there were actual separatist feminist and lesbian movements in the seventies. Some of them were outright fascistic, others were simply a bad solution to a pressing problem. Were they left? Who cares. If there is anything that is not left, it is equating the oppressed with their oppressor. Misandry, if it exists, is no concern of ours.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

I don't view them as negative. The problem with "Marxist Femminism" "Socialist Feminism" and other such currents within the broad left is that they try to integrate the struggle against patriarchy into the Anti-capitalist struggle by abandoning the anti-patriarchal struggle in favor for a more vague notion that woman should struggle against patriarchy by struggling against capitalism as workers, rather than struggling against patriarchy as woman. Instead of taking the woman's struggle seriously, it just seems that most groups try to incorporate feminism in order to score talking points against capitalism rather than fight for woman's liberation for it's own sake. Because let's be honest here, we are grown up big boy/girl/transfolk Marxists, we can look at a concrete situation and come up with concrete analysis without relying on outdated platitudes. Sure woman are oppressed by capitalism, but only as workers, not as woman. And yes, capitalism creates patriarchy, but when we look at what is the primary force oppressing woman as woman , it is patriarchy. After all, Capitalism in the abstract doesn't rape woman, working men rape woman. And therefore if we take our role as Marxists seriously we ought to be able to grasp this. So I am all for woman struggling against Patriarchy as woman and organizing as woman. Separatism is valuable insofar that it gives woman political agency outside of "gender collaborationist" organizations and allows them to struggle against patriarchy as woman. Of course they developed a faulty analysis of patriarchy, but I still think that it was a positive rupture, albeit one that ought not to be repeated again.

It is identical to patriarchy but the gender of the oppressor and the pastiche it is dressed in has changed

Just as the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is the brutal oppression of the bourgeois at the hands of the workers, it must also be the brutal oppression of patriarchy at the hands of woman.

[Vercingetorix]

Then you'd have no problem presenting a source to back this statement up, then? Right? I'd really be interested to see it, especially considering that a lot of these separatists only see it as a tactic rather than a political stance, and that I've never actually heard of any feminist separatist call for the establishment of an independent state or anything like what you're describing.

Search for their blogs. I am not currently allowed to link information. A quick search for "Feminist Separatist Communities" or "Lesbian Separatist Communities" will help you find the information you're looking for.

They're going to die out, because it's an idiotic idea. And yes, it is a fascist system.

The old black panthers were still black nationalists. Beyond them, there were a lot of black nationalist groups supported by communists at one time that literally called for a black state to be established in the South. Were these movements "fascist" as well?

They did not ask for the expulsion of white people from the south, they asked for controls of the political system in states where they represented a majority of the population. Migration has since dropped the numbers of the black community in the south, which once represented a majority population in places like Georgia and South Carolina, with a minority white leadership which used the courts and elected offices to keep blacks away from the reigns of power.

They were not fascist, because they did not ask, in general, for the expulsion of whites from such states, merely access to the levers of power that they deserved to control under a majority rule system.

Gerrymandering is still being used to prevent proportional black representation within the american electoral system. They would then argue for secession.

Such a request, which seemed to be the majority desire within the black liberation movement, is not fascist.

And again I say, any movement which desires ethnic or racial purity is fascist, and should be opposed by all leftists.

Just as the Dictatorship of the Proletariat is the brutal oppression of the bourgeois at the hands of the workers, it must also be the brutal oppression of patriarchy at the hands of woman.

I do not agree with dictatorship, and will fight any state which attempts to give itself such authority.

States have oppressed and committed ethnic cleansing and genocide against my ethnic group. We have no reason to trust states, and will not tolerate a state which has such authority. Any state with such authority is fit only for destruction.

[hatzel]

They're going to die out, because it's an idiotic idea. And yes, it is a fascist system.

And again I say, any movement which desires ethnic or racial purity is fascist, and should be opposed by all leftists.

Could you please stop calling everything fascist? Fascism is fascist (and it's kind of specific, you know, rather than some vague notion), other shitty stuff is just shitty stuff, non-fascist shitty stuff...

[Vercingetorix]

Could you please stop calling everything fascist? Fascism is fascist (and it's kind of specific, you know, rather than some vague notion), other shitty stuff is just shitty stuff, non-fascist shitty stuff...

I think we disagree on the definition of Fascism. I define fascism as any authoritarian system which opposes a plural society. I've always thought that was a good boilerplate definition. If the board as a whole disagrees with that definition, which is fine, there are other words I can use to describe these systems.

Far right and authoritarian are good examples. I can use those terms if others feel they are more accurate.

[#FF0000]

I define fascism as any authoritarian system which opposes a plural society.

Which does not even apply here. And I'm aware of lesbian separatist communities, and what you're saying is just an absolute non sequitur

They did not ask for the expulsion of white people from the south

Nor do feminist separatists ask for the expulsion of men from anywhere.

they asked for controls of the political system in states where they represented a majority of the population.

Most (that is, all that I know of) Feminists separatists don't even ask for this.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

How is segregating sexes into different institutions left wing? Haven't the misogynists been doing that for years? In fact, hasn't every supremacist body had this segregation thing going? Instead of actually overthrowing the hierarchical control and equalising the playing field, simply removing an oppressed group into a separate institutional entity almost seems to strengthen the ones on top. As I said, instead of combating the discrimination and fighting against it, this separatism sounds as if the oppressed groups should accept these absurd social norms and separate themselves from society.

They actually have shit like this in Japan: Women have separate transport systems because of the extraordinarily high levels of public sexual assault. This is clearly not a solution to the problem to anyone with half a brain can see that the real evil to be faced is the extreme sexist character of parts of the culture, and proper retaliation to and persecution of those who would commit such crimes.

[Quail]

They actually have shit like this in Japan: Women have separate transport systems because of the extraordinarily high levels of public sexual assault. This is clearly not a solution to the problem to anyone with half a brain can see that the real evil to be faced is the extreme sexist character of parts of the culture, and proper retaliation to and persecution of those who would commit such crimes.

It's not an ideal solution to have separate carriages, but I think as a kind of "stop gap" measure while there is still a high level of harassment, it's good for the women. Things aren't going to change overnight, so until they do change, it makes sense to me to have women-only spaces. If I was being harassed and groped every day on the train by men, I would definitely use a women-only carriage.

[blake 3:17]

I only know one person who talks about separate feminism and he's a 65 year old gay man with a very weird axe to grind.

It's irrelevant.