What's the deal with Crimethinc?

[BIXX]

I've seen some people openly bash Crimethinc, and while I have limited knowledge of them, I have yet to see anything that struck me as odd (though my knowledge of them is mainly because of a debate involving one of the members and a poster I have made by them). Other people seem to think they're pretty rad- so what's the deal?

Sorry if this is in the wrong area, I couldn't decide if it belonged in learning or websites or what. Feel free to move it.

[o well this is ok I guess]

"we dumpstered, squatted, and shoplifted our lives back"

If you ask someone why they don't like Crimethinc, they'll either refer to Evasion or Anarchy in the Age of Dinosaurs.
That aside, if memory serves me correct Crimethinc bashing pretty much disappeared when they published work and came back when they debated Chris Hedges.

[blake 3:17]

I would like to like them, but they're so incoherent, it is very boring to read about.

## Sometimes you do have to choose between art and politics. ###

I've been following them since they started, we used to get their sh#t at Who's Emma & I couldn't understand it, and I never what anybody's really saying. I really really hate the North American black bloc stuff. I was looking at their site, and if they're honest and were really there, they nearly got my head beat hard for no reason.

One of the groups they were talking up about the G20 protests in Toronto had cops in it from the beginning, alongside some very well meaning people who were very naive. Some super stupid stuff went down and it was hard to see why the cops were soooooooooooo incompetent, but they wanted it. It scared people in the suburbs & bolstered a hard Right policing and military machine.

[Palmares]

Ah, the 'ol Crimethinc discussion...

I can't deny, when I was younger, I was fairly into them. I must make it clear, I never read Evasion, nor do I have any interest in doing so. I read Days of War, Nights of Love, which was inspiring along lifestylist lines. Over time I did become critical of them, but I think my analysis and understanding of them on some level gained more depth when I went to the US and attended one of their yearly gatherings (which no longer happen - another story altogether).

In a way, alot of the things that critics say about Crimethinc rang true at this gatherings. Lifestylist, ultra-PC, etc. But what I didn't really think about is the fact that Crimethinc isn't just some small group of people with the same ideas. There was infact quite a diversity of ideas, though quite diametrically opposing it seemed at times. This experience, also made me realise quite an obvious point, one, the writers of their publications have changed over time, or even the politics themselves. I can even see certain different poltical tendecies in different publications.

I even remember hearing this self-reflection of some crimethinc members about the older publications, which are famous for the lifestylism. They basically said, they never meant to say that lifestylism was revolutionary, but this point seemed to have been overwhelmingly lost on many folk who read these publications.

So I recognise that reading this stuff had a positive affect on me, and I won't pretend it didn't, because it's easy to bash them. Just like pretending I didn't grow up listening to nu-metal...

I haven't got alot of interest in reading their stuff anymore, but I'll still give credit where credit is due.

[BIXX]

ultra-PC

I'm just on a roll with my stupid questions today- why is being PC a problem? Can you give me am example?

I'm not a very PC person myself but I do recognize I should be more PC probably.

[Palmares]

Man, that's a can-of-worms my friend. But it's not a stupid question.

This is kinda worthy of another thread, but...

First of all, please note I said "ultra-PC", as opposed to referring to PC in of itself pejoratively. So I by no means whatsoever am saying there is a distinct problem in having deep analyses of social struggles, or infact having autonomous struggles of thus.

But I think the point you are trying to get to is this: what critiques are there of being ultra-PC (within a given of a certain level of PC being accepted)?

For me at least, I think one important point is how the obsession with certain social struggles detracts from the greater totality. Of course there needs to be a balance between the totality and the necessary parts, as they are dependent on each other.

However, on a more day-to-day level, the way one may experience this (and thus critique it), is how extreme PC analysis can lose the point of critiquing oppression in the first place, whilst also becoming extremely divisive, and for me, also creating a consciousness of hyper-sensitivity (from within this mentality of self-victimisation).

In my past, I have been a very PC person. I admit, I have been an arsehole. I have also called out douchebags on their shit. It's a tough balance, and to some degree, I'm still trying to disamantle/unlearn some of the ultra-PC consciousness that has been instilled in me (whilst also resisting becoming a disrespectful un-PC fuckhead).

For example, if someone says something sexist, then call them on their shit. However, this act in of itself does not make someone "fucked". Everyone makes mistakes. We all live under the same structures of oppression, so noone is perfectly onto it. So yeah, tell them off, in a diplomatic non-devisive way. Unless they say something really fucked, then, well, it's one's own prerogative to tell them off as they see necessary. It's definitely not clear cut. But hey, if you were to tell every single person you meet in every context for all the mistakes they make... you'll have few friends, and certainly won't be gathering allies to building any sort of movement.

I remember, there were times when I was sensitive to so many words that people I knew would say. I was obviously hanging out in less PC communities at these times. I would feel so tense. I would feel so angry. I started to realise this was a real problem. Sure, tell people off when they say shit stuff, but it's not appropriate in all contexts, and is not sustainable.

And in practice now, I still admit it can be sometimes difficult to ascertain when is the right context to "call someone out" or similar, but at least I feel I can now better communicate and socialise with people outside of PC communities without feeling (more) anxious about what words people use, etc.

I could dribble on about this for ages... But I hope you got something from that.

[BIXX]

Thanks, that helped a lot.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Ah, the 'ol Crimethinc discussion...

I can't deny, when I was younger, I was fairly into them. I must make it clear, I never read Evasion, nor do I have any interest in doing so. I read Days of War, Nights of Love, which was inspiring along lifestylist lines. Over time I did become critical of them, but I think my analysis and understanding of them on some level gained more depth when I went to the US and attended one of their yearly gatherings (which no longer happen - another story altogether).

In a way, alot of the things that critics say about Crimethinc rang true at this gatherings. Lifestylist, ultra-PC, etc. But what I didn't really think about is the fact that Crimethinc isn't just some small group of people with the same ideas. There was infact quite a diversity of ideas, though quite diametrically opposing it seemed at times. This experience, also made me realise quite an obvious point, one, the writers of their publications have changed over time, or even the politics themselves. I can even see certain different poltical tendecies in different publications.

I even remember hearing this self-reflection of some crimethinc members about the older publications, which are famous for the lifestylism. They basically said, they never meant to say that lifestylism was revolutionary, but this point seemed to have been overwhelmingly lost on many folk who read these publications.

So I recognise that reading this stuff had a positive affect on me, and I won't pretend it didn't, because it's easy to bash them. Just like pretending I didn't grow up listening to nu-metal...

I haven't got alot of interest in reading their stuff anymore, but I'll still give credit where credit is due.

If you're not doing an overtly political reading of Evasion it's a pretty fun/cheap book to kill a a few hours on.

[Palmares]

Totally. I'm sure, if I actually got my hands on a copy when I was younger, I may well have enjoyed it. But I'm well aware of "scams" etc now, so I don't think am that interested now.

But if I had a few hours to kill....

[Rooiakker]

Crimethinc is a group of western predominantly white anarchists whose tactics are of almost no use outside of North America.

I own one of their books, it's a huge manual for anarchist tactics everything from black blocks to gardening and sex is covered. Honestly some of it was nice, but it's all just petty vandalism and spectacle when you get right down to it.

Anarchists need to spend less time getting arrested for graffiti and more time actually gathering public support and showing that Anarchists aren't all a bunch of criminals who want a lawless dystopia.

[Palmares]

Crimethinc is a group of western predominantly white anarchists whose tactics are of almost no use outside of North America.

I could pretty much agree with that, though I would say more like "outside the West", but funnily enough, you know there was (is?) a Crimethinc collective in South Africa? Crazy eh.

http://crimethinc.co.za/

But also, the mention of white people, though of course true, brings up the interesting point of the incident at the Pittsburgh Crimethinc convergence in 2009.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/crimethinc...388/index.html
http://www.crimethinc.com/blog/2009/...e-controversy/

Anarchists need to spend less time getting arrested for graffiti and more time actually gathering public support and showing that Anarchists aren't all a bunch of criminals who want a lawless dystopia.

Who said anything about getting arrested?

And who cares if anarchists are depicted as "criminals"? Such depictions are just the spectacle, fuck the media, and fuck the law.. In a revolution of everyday life (eg Raoul Vaneigem), we're all criminals.

I think also, in this point where you mention that anarchists should spend "more time" gathering public support, I would agree with this except for the "more" bit. In social war, of course it's important to organise from the grassroots, but also in recognising the diverse arsenal at the desposal of our oppressors, a diversity of tactics is necessary, and thus we should be in solidarity with our brethren rather than divisive.

[bcbm]

crimethinc is a whipping boy of the left, usually 'punished' for writings that have since been critiqued, rejected and even apologized for by those responsible and despite some good strides in analysis and quality output in recent years is still discussed more for hating deodorant and publishing evasion

[Let's Get Free]

Crimethinc? lol. They're Stirnirnites, and not very good ones at that. Or i don't know. They're political philosophy seems to be influenced by postmodern philosophy, nihilism, insurrectionary anarchism, and anarcho-primitivism with some Stirner and Bakunin thrown in. It's a murky area really, and difficult to understand for those not already steeped in postmodernism.

[human strike]

I like CrimethInc, but that's just me. I read Evasion. I realised it was a very silly book but it was still quite an enjoyable read. Really enjoyed Expect Resistance and Days of War, Nights of Love and all. I'm not saying I'm uncritical - I hope I'm always critical - but I think there's a lot in their stuff that can be appreciated.