Newswire from Greece III

[cyu]

And here’s Citi’s take: Unless there is a change of government in Greece (or a major change of views among the institutions), the slide into Grexit would be very likely, even though it might take a long time.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...lehman-weekend

In other words, the only way to ensure slavery in all the colonies, is to re-confirm slavery in one colony.

[cyu]

"There have been some people that worry that the military may actually get involved. It wouldn't surprise me - there are some people in Greece that have raised the whole prospect of potential civil war."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...pect-civil-war

Slave owners would prefer to plant the idea that field slaves should kill each other, than let house slaves get the idea they can kill the slave owners.

[cyu]

new elections would be necessary if the Greek people vote for the reform programme and thus for remaining in the eurozone and Tsipras, as a logical consequence, resigns."

The time between the departure of Tsipras' hard-left Syriza party and new elections would have to "be bridged with a technocratic government, so that we can continue to negotiate," Schulz was quoted as saying.

Schulz charged that Tsipras was "unpredictable and manipulates the people of Greece, in a way which has almost demagogical traits."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...pet-government

I suppose Nat Turner was a demagogue and Robert E Lee was a proper technocrat.

[cyu]

Greece has essentially capitulated to Troika demands which will come with far harsher terms and even more austerity, just to keep the myth that Greece is an "equal member" in the Eurozone, yet virtually all the proceeds will go back to repaying the ECB, the IMF and other official taxpayer-backed European creditors as well as the occasional private holdout creditor.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...-steps-summary

Just goes to show that the same tactics used to strongarm Third World nations in Latin America and Africa, also works on small European nations. But there's a reason there are laws against bribery, blackmail, intimidation, and other types of corruption - too much of a bad thing, and you have to resort to riot police - the lagging indicator of failed states.

[cyu]

IMF Slams Germany, Says Greece "Needs Debt Restructuring"

IMF'S LAGARDE SAYS DEBT RESTRUCTURING NEEDED IN GREECE
IMF'S LAGARDE SAYS FUND REMAINS 'FULLY ENGAGED' WITH GREECE
IMF'S LAGARDE SAYS IMF CANNOT GIVE GREECE SPECIAL TREATMENT

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...-restructuring

Right, and I bet the Democrats and Republicans are "different" political parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_cop/bad_cop

[cyu]

New research by IMF concludes "trickle down economics" is wrong: "the benefits do not trickle down" -- "When the top earners in society make more money, it actually slows down economic growth. On the other hand, when poorer people earn more, society as a whole benefits."

http://www.reddit.com/r/economy/comm..._trickle_down/

While the above is true, the IMF cannot be trusted. The IMF is like the man who beats his spouse. He'll apologize profusely when you threaten to leave. He'll buy you flowers, lots of flowers. Then when he's won you back, he beats you again. This is because the IMF is run by sociopaths.

[cyu]

the IMF violated its own principles by not allowing Greece to default on major international banks before granting it a loan.

Finland’s Foreign Minister Timo Soini said this week about the idea of a third Greek bailout round: “the Finnish public can’t understand that this is allowed to continue”.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...ilout-bad-idea

That's because the Troika isn't actually trying to bail out Greece, they are really just trying to bail out themselves.

[cyu]

The Greek leader is fighting for political survival after abandoning his opposition to austerity earlier this month with his country on the brink of financial collapse. He’s trying to hold off elections long enough to steer the country through the bailout negotiations.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...l-vote-preview

When banks cannot maintain the illusion that large debtors will give them money, then it may trigger a bank run that cascades into general bank failure around the world. When bankers panic, they make sure their politicians panic, who then make sure "leaders" of debtor nations panic.

Such is the irony of being a king or the center of a neo-colonial empire. When you're the king, you may be rich, but you no longer produce anything yourself. You can only stay rich if your colonies continue to give you the things they produce. If that stops, then your wealth collapses. If you've let your own ability to produce things atrophy, then you're bound for the same starvation you used to laughed at in others.

[cyu]

The benchmark index in Athens opened nearly 23% lower, with banking stocks the biggest losers.

Greece suspended all trading at the end of June when the country fell into default on its debt. Capital controls were introduced, including the closure of banks and financial markets, to prevent billions of euros from flooding out of the country.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/03/inve...k-market-crash

The more the stock market crashes, the less reason there is for capitalists to oppose employee takeovers of their companies, since according to capitalist valuations, the companies are worthless anyway When employees rule a company, however, there is a difference in valuation between capitalists and employees - to capitalists the company is worthless, since employee control means 0 capitalist control - to employees, it's the exact opposite.

The more banks have invested in the stock market, the more banks you would expect to fail. If there is no cash to use, all the more reason to switch to alternatives. If gold bugs think they can back currency with worthless rocks, it should be even easier to back money with something worthwhile - an employee controlled tire company might back notes with tires, an employee controlled ceramic tile company might back notes with ceramic tiles.

[ckaihatsu]

[I]t should be even easier to back money with something worthwhile - an employee controlled tire company might back notes with tires, an employee controlled ceramic tile company might back notes with ceramic tiles.

Oh, yeah -- just remembered the issue I'd have with this conception of a transitional worker-controlled economy -- how would the *exchange rates* of currency-to-tires or currency-to-ceramic-tiles be determined -- ?? -- !


Pies Must Line Up

[cyu]

I could just say market forces will determine exchange rates, but I'd have to cringe when I say that, since ultimately I'd prefer a gift economy. I see company-issued notes as more a stop gap measure, but when you're forced down an untraveled branch, you can never foresee all problems, so some bridges will just have to be built when you get there. For example, if companies are already issuing their own money, how do you move from that towards a gift economy? I would start by protecting the right of people to take whatever they need to survive - for example, protect people who are hungry when they decide to take food - protect the sick when they decide to take medicine. When survival is no longer a pressing issue, then it's up to people with psychological skill to recruit them into necessary activities. The ruling class tends to blame "lazy people" when they refuse to be recruited, but I would blame the recruiters. If the media can brainwash men to pay for short hair and neckties, and women to pay for long hair and dresses, then blaming others for being lazy is just an excuse for their own incompetence.

[ckaihatsu]

I could just say market forces will determine exchange rates, but I'd have to cringe when I say that, since ultimately I'd prefer a gift economy.

Okay, yes, a gift economy, as quickly as possible, would *always* be preferable -- mostly for its simplicity. Hopefully its social effectiveness would fully manifest as well (relatively high levels of voluntary participation).

I see company-issued notes as more a stop gap measure, but when you're forced down an untraveled branch, you can never foresee all problems, so some bridges will just have to be built when you get there.

I can appreciate what you're saying about initiative, but -- especially with these matters of such fundamental importance (political economy) -- I would *far* prefer to see things spelled-out, laid-out, and checked-off-on in advance.

Also, I don't get the point of 'company-issued notes' in the first place -- what would *these* represent exactly, and what would be the nominal value of each note in relation to the company and what it produces -- ?

For example, if companies are already issuing their own money, how do you move from that towards a gift economy?

I'll leave off on this question for now since you may want to define the 'company notes' to begin with.

I would start by protecting the right of people to take whatever they need to survive - for example, protect people who are hungry when they decide to take food - protect the sick when they decide to take medicine.

While I have no differences with this *in principle*, it's tangibly sounding like Mad-Max-style post-apocalyptic tribalism -- what happens if 'Protectorate A' wants the food and medicine for its own people that 'Protectorate B' is on the verge of obtaining -- ?

(And how would the production of *new* supplies of food and medicine be handled -- ?)

When survival is no longer a pressing issue, then it's up to people with psychological skill to recruit them into necessary activities. The ruling class tends to blame "lazy people" when they refuse to be recruited, but I would blame the recruiters. If the media can brainwash men to pay for short hair and neckties, and women to pay for long hair and dresses, then blaming others for being lazy is just an excuse for their own incompetence.

'People with psychological skill' -- ?

'Recruit' -- ?

'Necessary activities' -- ?


In what kind of socio-political context is all of this taking place?

[cyu]

One of the problems Greece has right now is that banks are limiting how much money people can withdraw from their account. If you can't withdraw money, then how can any Greeks get groceries or pay for electricity, or whatever? This problem is what company-issued notes are meant to solve. If people's banks are not on the verge of collapse, then they would probably not see this as a pressing issue.

But if there is indeed a shortage of cash, then your ceramic tile company, for example, can count how many tiles they have in their warehouse. Let's say they have 1000 tiles. Then they can draw up some 1 tile notes, some 10 tile notes, some 100 tile notes, etc ...as long as they add up to 1000. The company can then use these notes to pay for supplies. Why would anybody accept these notes? It works just like the gold standard, except the notes are actually backed by something with real intrinsic value (unlike gold).

[cyu]

'People with psychological skill' -- ?
'Recruit' -- ?

For example, people who work in a company's advertising department, people who work in human resources, people who work in the mass media.

'Necessary activities' -- ?

Yep, everyone has a different opinion as to what is necessary and what isn't. What one recruiter says is necessary may not be what another recruiter says is necessary. (Similarly, what one advertiser says is awesome may not be what another advertiser says is awesome.) If a recruiter is not able to get people to join his cause, then it is quite possible that his project is not necessary after all. (Similarly, if an advertiser is not able to get people to buy his product, then it is quite possible that his product is not awesome after all.)

[ckaihatsu]

One of the problems Greece has right now is that banks are limiting how much money people can withdraw from their account. If you can't withdraw money, then how can any Greeks get groceries or pay for electricity, or whatever? This problem is what company-issued notes are meant to solve. If people's banks are not on the verge of collapse, then they would probably not see this as a pressing issue.

But if there is indeed a shortage of cash, then your ceramic tile company, for example, can count how many tiles they have in their warehouse. Let's say they have 1000 tiles. Then they can draw up some 1 tile notes, some 10 tile notes, some 100 tile notes, etc ...as long as they add up to 1000. The company can then use these notes to pay for supplies. Why would anybody accept these notes? It works just like the gold standard, except the notes are actually backed by something with real intrinsic value (unlike gold).

Okay, so this is effectively barter-by-scrip. But then how is *labor* to be estimated, and paid-for, using this system -- ?

Would there be *exchanges* of some kind, so that people can exchange scrip notes for other scrip notes, and how would this be organized (under what auspices) -- ?

Also I don't see how these scrip notes would be compatible with payments to state utilities, such as for electricity.

Sorry to be so critical, but I think the entire *world* can do better -- all of this needs to be *politicized* so that broadly consistent *solutions* like debt forgiveness and social services can be implemented, in the favor of the people's interests as a whole group.

[cyu]

Not sure what the difference is between "barter-by-scrip" and money? To me, it's all the same. Currently, money is issued by nations, and people trust it for one reason or another. This just happens to be money issued by groups of employees, who, like good anarchists assume all the powers that nations claim, including the right to issue money.

If something currently works with nation-issued money, the same processes work with employee-issued money.

I think the entire *world* can do better

Exactly - as mentioned above, this is just a stop gap, since I prefer a gift economy. Ultimately I would not have companies have to use notes at all - instead, anybody who needs what a company produces, just shows up and takes it - for free. Capitalists would then balk at how anybody can be motivated if things are just taken for free, which goes right back to what is discussed at http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...&postcount=154

[ckaihatsu]

Not sure what the difference is between "barter-by-scrip" and money?

You said the 'company notes' could only be backed, according to each kind of company-note, by the products of each respective company.

So there'd be notes-for-tires and notes-for-ceramic-tiles, which would be two different kinds of notes.

I think you might see how this would be distinct from a regular national currency, or money.

Would you like to return to the questions I raised about scrip-note implementation -- ?

To me, it's all the same. Currently, money is issued by nations, and people trust it for one reason or another. This just happens to be money issued by groups of employees, who, like good anarchists assume all the powers that nations claim, including the right to issue money.

If something currently works with nation-issued money, the same processes work with employee-issued money.

I'm still not seeing the point -- if you don't mind -- once there are scrip notes that represent every real tangible object of use-value, what happens to the scrip notes -- ? How are they put into circulation? What is the relation between labor, as for producing *more* of whatever (tires and ceramic tiles), and the receipt of scrip notes?

Exactly - as mentioned above, this is just a stop gap, since I prefer a gift economy. Ultimately I would not have companies have to use notes at all - instead, anybody who needs what a company produces, just shows up and takes it - for free.

Again, this is far more preferable.

Capitalists would then balk at how anybody can be motivated if things are just taken for free, which goes right back to what is discussed at http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...&postcount=154

[cyu]

The world is not one nation yet, so there are many many nations that issue their own currency. Yet international trade still works, despite these nations each issuing their own money. How does international trade work between nations with different currencies? Companies that issue different money can conduct transactions in the same way nations conduct international trade today.

How are they put into circulation?

The same way a gold standard is supposed to work. If the tile company produces 50 tiles, then they issue 50 tile notes. If someone actually wants a tile, and has a one tile note, then they go to the company and redeem the note for a physical tile. The note can then be destroyed. That's basically how gold-backed money is intended to work - except people can actually use tiles.

I wouldn't imagine every single company will issue notes - just whoever feels like it - if some company doesn't feel like issuing their own notes, they can just use another company's notes. For example, if the tile company pays their supplier using tile notes, their supplier might decide to conduct all transactions using tile notes.

This is intended for people who are still used to conducting business in the old capitalist way. For example, they might not trust that a gift economy will actually be implemented, so they still want something real to hang on to - in this case, they can hang on to tile notes, or tire notes, or wheat bushel notes, or oil barrel notes, and do business like they used to - until they feel secure enough that a gift economy has really taken hold.

[ckaihatsu]

If someone actually wants a tile, and has a one tile note

How does one *obtain* a one-tile note?

[cyu]

All the notes come from the tile company. If the tile company paid their suppliers using tile notes, then their suppliers will be another source of tile notes. If tile company employees pay for groceries using tile notes, then those grocery stores will be another source of tile notes. If their tile suppliers pay for electricity using tile notes, then the power company employees will be another source of tile notes.