Newswire from Greece III

[FSL]

What I do see as the revolutionary left is the pletoria of Trotskyist, Anarchists and left communist parties and groups currently not represented in parliament. Whose existence you habitually deny....since the KKE does not recognize them as revolutionary.

Trotskyist groups outside of antarsya and syriza? Might be a few dozen people. I know of no left communists and anarchists certainly have different aims compared to communists, even the ones that don't vote for Syriza (many of them do).

Are those the fragments you speak of? Then these fragments range from non-existant to non-compatible. You think I'm simply denying their presence? Then do me a favour and name them. You know of their revolutionary character? You must certainly know their names.


See, you're doing the same thing. You are defending the movement that spoke of "treason" and buried class struggle under greek flags and collective masturbation over a supposedly direct democracy, but with capitalists in place. And you're doing that while claiming you are the progressive one.

This is what I've seen many people do. But help me. How on earth are you suggesting that not even mentioning private property is revolutionary? How are you suggesting that talking only about a tough leader who will negotiate passionately and help everyone, workers and capitalists alike, live happily ever after, how are you suggesting that this is revolutionary and it's sectarian to not immediately accept this "truth"?


You seem passionate in your criticisms of the communist party and you live in the Netherlands. I live here and I meet people, just as irrational as you everyday and their inaction only drives me crazier. Don't think I'm only saying this to wind you up. I really want to know how you came to believe what you believe and what could change your mind if you heard it. It's just beyond my comprehension.

[FSL]

I am writing here not that the communist party should have done more. I am writing here that the communist party of Greece is a failure.

It is a joke and it is a collaborationist tool entrenched within the parliamentary democratic system. I reject the honesty behind the self espoused revolutionary nature of the KKE and consider them class traitors.

Time and time again the KKE has collaborated during protests and demonstrations with the police. Time and time again they handed comrades over to the cops. Time and time they have stood in protection of the very same institutions they claim to want to eradicate.

They have done so because of political opportunism. Positioning themselves to take sole leadership over the revolution....which will never come. The KKE more than once published on their website that they prefered the status quo because currently they themselves were not ready for this leadership role in the revolution.

In acting like the KKE has acted for decades they pissed all over the revolution. Alienating large parts of the population and working class. So much so that GD support in working class is twice as high as support for the KKE.

In its blind and one sided propagandistic efforts and its collaboration with cops and establishment they alienated Trotskyists, Anarchists, left communists. ALL of which are dismissed as social fascists, trouble makers, collaborators, infiltrants.

I have witnessed that first hand in several demonstrations. My comrades have witnessed that in the now infamous defense of parliament by the KKE.

In my eyes the KKE are the worst kind of scum. Worse than GD. And Worse than SYRIZA and their ilk.

Did I make my position clear enough for you?

You repeated the same nonsense but in no way provided the help I asked.

What I'm interested in is what makes you believe there are millions of troskyists, anarchists and left communists who are suggesting something different to a) a marshall plan as a result of a tough negotiation, and b) a return to drachma and can thus be considered revolutionary.


Please tell me which those vibrant revolutionary organizations are and I might understand at least why your sources are questionable at best.
For example, what the communist party said numerous times is that it won't accept government posts in a bourgeois state. What did you do, google translate the page? Or maybe trusted one of your million trotskyist, left communist and anarchist friends (outside of syriza and antarsya)?

[PhoenixAsh]

Ironically I would also like to point out that prior to the formation of SYRIZA the KKE had no problems whatsoever to ally itself with some of the groups that eventually left to join SYRIZA. Which is extremely ironic.

Now....what the KKE is doing is holding nice protest marches without actually doing anyting but walking around. They support some strike...mostly and solely when they are organized by PAME affiliated organisations.

It always amuses me to point out that PAME by and large consists of unions and associations which aren't in the least revolutionary orientated.

But I especially like the official position of the KKE in which they stated about their tremendous electoral loss was because of people “who do not understand KKE’s line and must rectify their stand”

Now the KKE position is that they are not part of the left but communists...and calls every group which does not belong to it: social democrats. Which is as nice and sectarian as it is isolationist.

But the KKE remains oddly silent on the fact that HALF...HALF its voters and members voted and went over to SYRIZA in 2012. Which is nice and illuminating. In polls as to why...the general assessment is the the KKE is not doing anything constructve in the current struggle.

And even before that left wing oriented youth protests in Greece were denounced by the KKE in the exact same terms as the rest of the bourgeoisie parties. Which lost the KKE tremendous respect in the younger age categories.

Awesome...no?

Of course I won't mention the selling of the KKE media 902 by the KKE....to a capitalist venture. Because that would be downright damning You know....communists selling the media which they were given for free to venture capitalists (because as they claimed: it was legal) to turn a profit.

OMG....the KKE....what a tragic joke.

[FSL]

Are you sure you're not Greek? The resemblance is uncunny.
You literally looked past everything I asked you, you didn't mention one of the many revolutionary organizations you were speaking of and instead just started talking about Syriza again.


In the 80s the communist party allied itself with Pasok in some local elections. In the 90s it allied itself with some organizations that are now in Syriza and in antarsya. That is a course of improvement, leading up to now. Pame is the class-consious part of the labor movement. It isn't communist nor should it be, but it does understand the fundamental differences between bosses and workers. It doesn't seek dialogue as it is so common with union bureaucracies, it tries to show why conversation with the bosses leads nowhere.


It is probably unnecessary of me to say how dissapointing you've been. You've demonstrated time and time again just how irrational you are, you basically admitted it yourself by refusing to answer the simplest questions and yet, you've offered no insight into the intricate workings of your mind. I am therefore again at a loss on how to change the mind of someone "thinking" like you.

[PhoenixAsh]

You repeated the same nonsense but in no way provided the help I asked.

What I'm interested in is what makes you believe there are millions of troskyists, anarchists and left communists who are suggesting something different to a) a marshall plan as a result of a tough negotiation, and b) a return to drachma and can thus be considered revolutionary.


Please tell me which those vibrant revolutionary organizations are and I might understand at least why your sources are questionable at best.
For example, what the communist party said numerous times is that it won't accept government posts in a bourgeois state. What did you do, google translate the page? Or maybe trusted one of your million trotskyist, left communist and anarchist friends (outside of syriza and antarsya)?

Have you actually read the 19th congress thesis of the KKE?

And the KKE rejecting government positions? They were in a government with ND of all parties for crying out loud!

Now...I livee to quite a few protests in Greece. Even the infamous one where Anarchists were chased by the KKE and after being beaten up summarily handed over to the cops by them. And I am not speaking of the one where the KKE defended the parliament.

Because the KKE has a history of sectarianism. Severe sectarianism and rejects any form of self criticism. In fact...critics are usually removed post haste or slandered.

In 2012 it was already argued by prominent and long term KKE members that SYRIZA was not a unity party but rather a coalition of different groups. Some of these groups are revolutionary. And as you well know...before these groups were kicked out of the alliance...they were allied to the KKE (you know...back when they served the KKE purpose a year or two before they joined SYRIZA and the KKE had no problem with former PASOK parties...unlike when they joined SYRIZA and the KKE suddenly radically changed course and said: "OMG SOCIAL DEMOCRATS...EWWWW")

Now the mere fact that you claim "incompatbility" as a reason not to enter into a larger revolutionary unity movement to...you know...tackle the first priority: capitalism and bourgeoisie government. Is evidence of this sectarinism I speak of.

But more pressing is the outcome of the 19th congress in which the KKE rejects any and all involvement and cooperation with any political party or group outside of its own satelite organisations to create a popular alliance. "The Popular Alliance today [is] determined via the action of PAME, PASEVE, PASSY, MAS, OGE. The Popular Alliance is not a coalition of political parties”. (and let me state here once again...most of these groups are NOT revolutionary at all). OUtside of these any cooperation with other unions is rejected so even on the trade-union or community level, KKE excludes any possibility of a formation of a united front with forces that are outside its orbit.

Denying also the fact that about 50% of KKE members who previously thought that a popular movement would make sense with the radical factions of SYRIZA and Anarchists....simply walked out on the KKE and joined and voted for SYRIZA.

Now....why? Why would KKE do this?? Because they are waiting for parties that (and yes I am quoting) “express the position of petty-bourgeois strata” but nevertheless defer to the KKE. Let me repeat that petty bourgeois strata.

Now....the KKE did...to their credit...adopt a socialism now strategy...you know....rather than the stages strategy they previously adopted and now critisize in others Unfortunately they added:

However, when the Central Committee of the KKE sets transition to socialism as a direct aim, it proposes no “indications and road plans” on how to achieve this except: ' to avoid untimely struggles And to wait until the objective conditions of the socialist revolution come onto the working class’s daily agenda.”

Now...I could disseminate this on a Communist Intern level....but seeing I am an anarchist...I am going to leave that for others. I would like to mention that the United Front idea...which is rejected by the KKE....is thoroughly a 1922 stated an proved doctrine of the Com Intern

Now the KKE continues whining..."omg the Tax movement, the potato movement and the massive amount of strikes (the KKE did not support) as well as all those protests....there were petty bourgeois signs there. Some people who supported that were not really revolutionaries....bohofuckingho"

And therefore it chose to stand aside. Observe. Do nothing. Like the good little incompetent stooges of the current system that they are.

Because they fail to understand. Because they do not grasp the situation. Because they have been too fucking bussy the last few decades with their own deluded sectarian propaganda and clinging on to comfortable parliamentary pluche.

THAT is what is wrong with the KKE.

And they wonder WHY they don't get anything done? Nooo. Because it is all the people's fault. Because...and yeah...again I quote: "they do not understand the party line and need to be corrected"

Yeah....sure. The KKE...it is a joke.

[PhoenixAsh]

Are you sure you're not Greek? The resemblance is uncunny.
You literally looked past everything I asked you, you didn't mention one of the many revolutionary organizations you were speaking of and instead just started talking about Syriza again.


In the 80s the communist party allied itself with Pasok in some local elections. In the 90s it allied itself with some organizations that are now in Syriza and in antarsya. That is a course of improvement, leading up to now. Pame is the class-consious part of the labor movement. It isn't communist nor should it be, but it does understand the fundamental differences between bosses and workers. It doesn't seek dialogue as it is so common with union bureaucracies, it tries to show why conversation with the bosses leads nowhere.


It is probably unnecessary of me to say how dissapointing you've been. You've demonstrated time and time again just how irrational you are, you basically admitted it yourself by refusing to answer the simplest questions and yet, you've offered no insight into the intricate workings of your mind. I am therefore again at a loss on how to change the mind of someone "thinking" like you.

First....all your questions have been answered in exchanges we have had in previous Greek Newswire threads. We have hashed this out.

Now.... I am at a complete loss on how to get it through to you that I am not going to change my mind on the KKE unless the KKE suddenly ends their sectarianist propaganda, stops collaborating with the system, denounces their past position and actually starts organizing and cooperating with broader initiatives.

And since it is a safe bet the KKE won't do that any time soon....there is absolutely nothing you can say that would change my mind.\

And...for your information...I did not bring up SYRIZA in this debate. You did that.

[FSL]

You said you didn't mean Syriza or Antarsya when you were talking about the revolutionary left. You claimed you meant many revolutionary groups, trotskyist, anarchist, left communist outside of these two organizations.

I asked you to name these groupings since you're so familiar with them and tell me more about their aims to verify that they're revolutionary.
You didn't -couldn't- do that and instead spoke again of Syriza.

In 2012 it was already argued by prominent and long term KKE members that SYRIZA was not a unity party but rather a coalition of different groups. Some of these groups are revolutionary.

Oh pretty please, please name these revolutionary groups in Syriza and their revolutionary stance. You know, the fact that the most revolutionary of them only go as far as antarsya in claiming the euro and the "german prison" is the source of our problems. That with a change of currency, everyone could be happy, workers would be better off and capitalists would invest all their money to bring us jobs! I can specifically mention DEA for example that is of this opinion. That wants to fight for a return to drachma and not for a revolution.

Can you name one that is revolutionary or are you that full of shit?

Have you actually read the 19th congress thesis of the KKE?

.the KKE did...to their credit...adopt a socialism now strategy...you know....rather than the stages strategy they previously adopted and now critisize in others Unfortunately they added:
However, when the Central Committee of the KKE sets transition to socialism as a direct aim, it proposes no “indications and road plans” on how to achieve this except: ' to avoid untimely struggles And to wait until the objective conditions of the socialist revolution come onto the working class’s daily agenda.”

And this is just how full of it you are. You ask me whether I've read the thesis of the 19th congress. have you read it? And if you've read it, why aren't you quoting that directly but instead relying on that http://www.workersliberty.org/story/...fake-left-turn

Why what is an excerpt from that ridiculous article (that much to your disgust I assume, proposes a united front with the Obama-loving, enterpreneur praising Syriza) is presented by you as if it written by the communist party?

In reality a large chunk of KKE members had understood the duty to form a united front with Syriza aiming at a government of the Left, dialectically linked to working class struggle and organisation.


However, when the Central Committee of the KKE sets transition to socialism as a direct aim, it proposes no “indications and road plans” on how to achieve the aim. All that was spelled out in the theses was to avoid untimely struggles (such as the slogan of the government of the Left) and to wait until “the objective conditions of the socialist revolution come onto the working class’s daily agenda.”

Of course the actual theses say nothing about "avoiding untimely struggles". They instead say that socialism is a very timely struggle and in fact the real solution to our problems. And these theses were supported by 97-98% of the party members.




So let me sum up. You speak of a revolutionary fragmented left. When you're called out on that you refuse that you mean Syriza.
Then you can't name the other groups that make up this left so you again return to "some trotskyist groups in syriza that are revolutionary"
You refuse to explain how and why these are revolutionary as from what I know, all they're dreaming is drachma. Everything else is untimely.
You oppose the communist party not based on its positions, but based on how they are interpreted by someone who supports Syriza.
And you have the nerve to use that interpretation and claim it's the communist party's words. That they added that to the congress' decisions.




So all in all, I believe that I have understood why you think the way you think.
See, you're a reactionary and all you are dreaming is also a humane capitalism. You don't want to admit that so you'll make up stories on how denying revolution is the revolutionary thing to do. On how the working class is served by tougher negotiations or by a national currency and "money printing".


The problem isn't that you're dumb or irrational. If you wanted a revolution, then this behaviour would be inexplicable. You don't want one and you just would hate to admit it. You want a potentially good government taking over and looking after you. And it's not even weird that you're an anarchist. Many anarchists in Greece voted for Syriza, expressing in that way their love for Obama and for the values of European Union. Even one anarchist "terrorist-bank robber" was found to have supported Syriza in the elections (after he was arrested people checked his twitter).


See, that's what you are. Not confused and misguided. Just a liar.
And since there is no confusion in you, that is why it is impossible for me to change your mind. You don't need to hear that Syriza -along with revolutionary groups it carries- praises Obama and a supposedly progressive management of capitalism. You know that. You like that. It's what you dream.


And I can do nothing except wait until finally those frauds manage to get into office and "betray" you, along with many other fans of theirs here.

Not that this will make you understand that a humane capitalism is impossible.
No, being the good anarchist you are you'll trust some other pseudo-leftist down the way.
But watching you and the rest of the fans having the betrayed look... Well, I feel a bit bad to say it but it will be extremely enjoyable.

[FSL]

And apparently the source you used and presented as the communist party in its 19th congress is AWL, some trotskyist group in Britain.


Can you fake leftists stoop any lower? Is it not enough for you to just vote, fanatically even, any social democrat you see fit?
Why must you make it your life goal to fight off communism?

[Delenda Carthago]

Funny thing is, the only reason there is not any news on this newsfeed, is cause I stopped feeding it. Mostly cause nobody in here really gives a shit about anything else than spectacle. I mean, look at the general decadance the "Worker Struggles" subforum is. This is pathetic. Go smurf yourselfs.

[PhoenixAsh]

Mainly because nobody is really interested in the traditional sectarian KKE propaganda and usual spin.

Which gets old really really fast.

And FSL...you know damned well from our past exchanges that naming organisations would ending in a tirade of how they are really informants, reformists, revisionist, collaborating, closet social democrats. Because that is in fact the KKE line.

And lo and behold...you are proving that exact same point from your very very first reply to my initial post. So you revert back to the most traditional of KKE traditions: personal attacks and questioning revolutionary intent.

Now...for somebody who most reverently supports a party which has:
* on more than one occasion participated in bourgeoisie government. Has even allied itself with the ND.
* sold parts of it organisation to venture capitalists for profit.
* officially maintains that the current status quo is preferable above revolution because the situation is "confused"
* has on more than one occasion openly collaborated with the cops and defended the institutions of capitalist parliamentary democracy...
* blames the people for electoral losses
* on more than one occasion betrayed protests and other radical leftwing parties
* in the past betrayed revolution

....that is a pretty blatant pot-kettle-black statement lacking of any self-criticism and sectarianism. And it splendidly proves my point.


Now...it is extremely interesting you do not comment on the fact that the KKE did indeed call their electoral loss the fault of the people who did not understand the KKE line.

And it is very interesting you fail to comment on the fact that the KKE lost HALF their voters and a huge amount of members to SYRIZA.

You claim trusting others outside of the KKE would be to wait for betrayal (and we all know the KKE is far faster with theirs than others )...but my reply to that is: when is the KKE actually going to do something constructive??? Because right now all they do is sit on their arse and wait it out. Bewildered and impotent at the very very best...and complacency at its most likely.

Because the harsh reality is that your party is done. It is a laughable runner up. It hasn't even managed to match the GD! It isn't even back to its pre-crisis potential.

So you can post all kinds of pictures of banner waving parades you organize through your non revolutionary and non politicized union sattelites. But all you do is walk around and look very pretty.

[Delenda Carthago]

Mainly because nobody is really interested in the traditional sectarian KKE propaganda and usual spin.

Which gets old really really fast.

Yeah bro. Sure. For example right now the thread about NY airport workers blocking roads has zero answers and minimum views, because...KKE. KKE is the reason why people in here dont give a single fuck about actual class struggle and just be fanboys of riotporn.


Whatever helps you nobodies sleep at night, really...

* in the past betrayed revolution

You do realise that the only revolution ever happened in Greece, was lead by KKE, right?

[Delenda Carthago]

And just so someone can have a clear view on who is who...


Yesterday the "antirevolutionary" PAME did this: confronted the riot cops at the guard of a strike at a soap factory.





What did you and your organization did yesterday for the class struggle? Mothafucka? Please, be thorough about it.

[Ele'ill]

What did you and your organization did yesterday for the class struggle? Mothafucka? Please, be thorough about it.

I don't have an organization because they're mostly complete shit imo but I think I wasn't very productive at work so that def. counts it's about as much contributed to the class struggle

[#FF0000]

What did you and your organization did yesterday for the class struggle? Mothafucka? Please, be thorough about it.

we didn't defend parliament from a bunch of angry as heck workers which is a victory in itself, i think.

[PhoenixAsh]

Yeah bro. Sure. For example right now the thread about NY airport workers blocking roads has zero answers and minimum views, because...KKE. KKE is the reason why people in here dont give a single fuck about actual class struggle and just be fanboys of riotporn.


Whatever helps you nobodies sleep at night, really...

Interestingly enough the KKE isn't interested in class struggle either. So you fit right in here.

You do realise that the only revolution ever happened in Greece, was lead by KKE, right?

Yes much like Holland was once the dominant power in the world once....ages ago.

Which of course also begs some serious questions as to why the KKE would sign a treaty establishing parliamentary capitalism (Varkiza) in the first place...and of course why the KKE would betray and execute and assassinate all non KKE revolutionary allies during the civil war.

[Delenda Carthago]

Interestingly enough the KKE isn't interested in class struggle either. So you fit right in here.

I m posting the photo of a strike at a factory. Answer:KKE isn't interested in class struggle.



Because fuck logic, thats why.

Yes much like Holland was once the dominant power in the world once....ages ago.

Have you anything more recent to show? Was there any other revolution in Greece in the meantime that I missed?

Which of course also begs some serious questions as to why the KKE would sign a treaty establishing parliamentary capitalism (Varkiza)

Which wasnt KKE, it was the People's Front(EAM). And today KKE rejects PFs exactly based on its(and in other countries experience of course like France or Spain) experience.

So you are accusing 2014 KKE for a mistake that PF did in 1944, yet you deny to accept the Civil War which was after that, because that was...ages ago?

Because...fuck logic?

in the first place...and of course why the KKE would betray and execute and assassinate all non KKE revolutionary allies during the civil war.

Revolutionary allies? You dont say. You mean the allies that when the british tanks were storming Athens, NATO's first Stay Behind(Team X) was murdering demonstrators with snipers from the rooftops etc, what they saw was a "stalinist coup"?

The same allies that when the Civil War ended with the victory of the bourgeois, they sended a letter giving congrats to the National Army for defeating the commies?


I mean, OK. "Allies". Allies of who, though?

[PhoenixAsh]

And just so someone can have a clear view on who is who...

Yesterday the "antirevolutionary" PAME did this: confronted the riot cops at the guard of a strike at a soap factory.

Awesome.

A year and a half ago PAME welcomed GD into a strike allowed them to make a speech and then thanked them for their support.

Now they are standing across from the police. They have come a long way since then.

And I also note that in the picture they haven't managed to hand over anybody to the cops. So....yeah...I'd say it is a huge step forwards.




Nobody claimed PAME was anti-revolutionary. What I did state was that PAME consists of mostly non-revolutionary groups and non political members. Which...if you would look up previous threads about the subject...is something you yourself admitted a year or so back.

What did you and your organization did yesterday for the class struggle? Mothafucka? Please, be thorough about it.

I managed to not associate with fascists and betray actual revolutionaries...and I managed not to participate in the parliamentary political process nor did I protect government institutions...and on top of that I did some groceries and bought fair trade chocolate. I think I may have called a cop a bastard....but I can't be sure. This may have happened the day before. I also posted some hateful comments on a conservative blog. And al of this before breakfast. After that I took it sow and I just posted a facebook status about how everybody should organize. O...and I likes a status by a squatting group. I think that counts too.

[Delenda Carthago]

we didn't defend parliament from a bunch of angry as heck workers which is a victory in itself, i think.

You dont say. "Angry as heck workers". Like who? What union/syndicate/whatever wanted to "storm the parliament"? Name 1(one).

And when you name me 1 (one) union that was on the side of these thugs, I will name you 100 (one hundred) of the unions that were with PAME that day. Just so everyone can see who was the working side and who the petit bourgeois on that day.

Plus: within those 100 (one hundred), you get an extra bonus, I m gonna name you at least 4 unions that did strikes for more than 100 days, aight?


PS. I dont know about no "angry as heck workers". I do know of though this:

+ YouTube Video

This is a video that someone made by taking two other videos from a guys channel on YT. On the first video we see him as an "angry as heck worker that wanted to storm the parliament" being injured after his fight with PAME that day.

On the second video, we see him as a fascist thug bullying two immigrants.


I rest my case, your Honor...

[PhoenixAsh]

I m posting the photo of a strike at a factory. Answer:KKE isn't interested in class struggle.

Because fuck logic, thats why.

KKE: striking and parading yourself through the crisis.

Have you anything more recent to show? Was there any other revolution in Greece in the meantime that I missed?

Nope, nothing more recent. I think that was pretty much the last one the KKE betrayed.

Which wasnt KKE, it was the People's Front(EAM). And today KKE rejects PFs exactly based on its(and in other countries experience of course like France or Spain) experience.

So you are accusing 2014 KKE for a mistake that PF did in 1944, yet you deny to accept the Civil War which was after that, because that was...ages ago?

Because...fuck logic?

My accusation has just about as much validity to the present as your reference to the past proves anything about the present.

Although....my accusation does provide some evidence in continuation of behaviour by the KKE.

I]Revolutionary allies[/I]? You dont say. You mean the allies that when the british tanks were storming Athens, NATO's first Stay Behind(Team X) was murdering demonstrators with snipers from the rooftops etc, what they saw was a "stalinist coup"?

The same allies that when the Civil War ended with the victory of the bourgeois, they sended a letter giving congrats to the National Army for defeating the commies?


I mean, OK. "Allies". Allies of who, though?

No I meant the Anarchists, Trotskyists, Left communists...council communists etc. the KKE assassinated.

[#FF0000]

You dont say. "Angry as heck workers". Like who? What union/syndicate/whatever wanted to "storm the parliament"? Name 1(one).

And when you name me 1 (one) union that was on the side of these thugs, I will name you 100 (one hundred) of the unions that were with PAME that day. Just so everyone can see who was the working side and who the petit bourgeois on that day.

Plus: within those 100 (one hundred), you get an extra bonus, I m gonna name you at least 4 unions that did strikes for more than 100 days, aight?

lol "workers who aren't affiliated with my party/union aren't workers and are also fascist thugs"