Communist Violence

[SocialistFreedomFighter]

I've always been asking myself this: should communism condone violence?
I understand that the capitalists aren't going to give up without a fight, but does this mean that we should execute them especially in such a brutal manner? Shouldn't we not just arrest them? Or banish them?
Is there any other way than violence?

[VDS]

I think it's a tricky question. I think many here would agree that revolutionary times are a special circumstance. For example, I'm against the death penalty now, and in a post-capitalist world. However, during a time of revolution, I believe the circumstances are different. Arresting them would do no good because where would they go? We'd need to waste resources to feed and house them, resources that would be better spent.

Now I don't think they should ALL just be captured and brutally murdered. I think that's insane, not to mention it's a gross simplification. I'll go more into it in a later reply maybe, but the short answer is that we can't just arrest/banish them. Theoretically, the revolution will be a world wide revolution, not just a revolution in one country, so where would we banish these people?

[Tim Cornelis]

Arresting and banning people is violence though.

[SocialistFreedomFighter]

the revolution will be a world wide revolution, not just a revolution in one country, so where would we banish these people?

Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Well I believe in second chances. If they attempt to revert the progress into capitalism, then I suppose there really is no other choice. I suppose it can be justified considering how evil capitalism is in comparison to communism. I suppose that could be said that capitalists are indeed selfish people who only do care for themselves and would indeed exploit the vulnerability of others. But two wrongs don't make a right either.
It's quite a moral dilemma.

[SocialistFreedomFighter]

Arresting and banning people is violence though.

Well it is a better alternative to murder through 'purges' which the Bolsheviks had carried out. In fact it's the best alternative. Capitalists should indeed be rightfully arrested for their crimes against humanity. Not permanently arrested. Just until they are rehabilitated and no longer a threat.

[Dropdead]

Where should they be put in? In a house and just lock them up?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

That is all very nice, but the revolution is the violent act of one class overthrowing another and destroying the existing society. It can't be restrained; as revolutionaries, why should we even attempt to restrain it, unless we are talking about some minor restraint that would facilitate the seizure of power?

[Tim Cornelis]

Well it is a better alternative to murder through 'purges' which the Bolsheviks had carried out. In fact it's the best alternative. Capitalists should indeed be rightfully arrested for their crimes against humanity. Not permanently arrested. Just until they are rehabilitated and no longer a threat.

I don't think arresting 4-15% of the population by default for them owning means of production is viable either. It would be inefficient, wasting resources on politically inactive capitalists. Our attention should be focused on those active in reaction, workers or capitalists, and deal with them appropriately -- which would mostly mean arresting them.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

It would be fantastic if we could simply end capitalism without the need to resort to violence but that is simply living in the same fantasy that bourgeois moralists would have you live in.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Water the flower of revolution in blood.

[Rafiq]

Violence, whether mediated through physical force or otherwise is a prerequisite for revolution.

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[Marxaveli]

Where we can achieve our aims without the use of violence, it should be done. But of course, the capitalist state will most likely commit violence first anyways, as it almost always has, and we will have to respond in kind to defend the revolution and our class interests. So the use of violence will have to come and some point or another, any thoughts otherwise is duck tales.

[Sudsy]

There are many many situations where violence is the best option. I would argue the whole third world should take up armed struggle, but the situation in wealthy countries is different. I always believe in revolution, and revolution doesn`t mean war and death or armed struggle. Marx himself said ... we do not deny that there are countries like England and America... where labour may attain its goal by peaceful means." Marx, 18 September 1872, at the Hague Congress of the International, But sometimes violent struggle and rebellion happens, and is a justified struggle against oppressors.

[Sudsy]

Well it is a better alternative to murder through 'purges' which the Bolsheviks had carried out. In fact it's the best alternative. Capitalists should indeed be rightfully arrested for their crimes against humanity. Not permanently arrested. Just until they are rehabilitated and no longer a threat.

Actually, in the labour camps (except for serious crimes) people were sentenced to an average of five years. Which shows the favoring of rehabilitation.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I feel like arrests and imprisonment and the infrastructure necessary to sustain them more or less indicate failure. Having successfully carried out communization in most fields, one would hope that ideological enemies would be faced with a choice to either pitch in, or go fend for themselves (and likely end up vulture food). I don't see much point in feeding, housing, and watching over people I'd much rather just fuck off.

Before that point, I guess their violent suppression is kind of a "Self defence, duuuh," sort of thing.

[Comrades Unite!]

Of course violence utilized as force is necessary.
A revolution in the means of production will obviously result in the capitalistic class retaliating with violence .

[Craig_J]

Well it is a better alternative to murder through 'purges' which the Bolsheviks had carried out. In fact it's the best alternative. Capitalists should indeed be rightfully arrested for their crimes against humanity. Not permanently arrested. Just until they are rehabilitated and no longer a threat.

The tricky thing is most of the world right now would consider themselves Capitalists. The indoctrination means that they can't see past it. Some may even be in our own familys. It's a very tricky one indeed.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

I myself that, when the revolution does come, the level of violence will vary from country to country. Some will be relatively bloodless, others will have varying levels of bloodshed. And some will be...very, VERY bloody.

Personally, I find mass executions to be counterproductive (if not morally questionable at best). Not every member of the bourgeoisie is unsympathetic to the cause (remember Engels), and simply going out and killing anyone over a certain level of income is reactionary in the extreme. I myself would go for revolutionary tribunals, wherein the workers who labored under a particular capitalist testify before a jury of workers about the conditions in which they labored. Then, we simply let the workers decide what they want to do with them. This revolution is for THEM, after all.

But don't misunderstand me...I am under no illusions that this will be completely bloodless. There will be conflict, and there will be bloodshed. One of the best quotes about revolution comes from Thomas Jefferson: "Every now and then, the Tree of Liberty must be fed with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants."

In his time, it was quite appropriate. But for our struggle I'd modify it thusly:

"Once the day comes, the Tree of Liberty will be fed with the blood of Workers and Plutocrats."

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I didn't know we were executing every capitalist post-revolution...

[BIXX]

During the revolution, I see no problem with the bloodshed of oppressive classes. I don't want it to happen, but I consider it in a way that they contributed to the bloodshed of our comrades, so they get what's coming. After the revolution however, then I do believe we should try to rehabilitate them. Or rather, do exactly what Kropotkin seems to suggest- ignore them, more or less. They would resolve themselves. For example, how would they oppress another class when there were no classes? Why would they try to have a bigger house when there are no servants, and they must tend to it themselves? Why have fancy clothing when it is no longer a sign of social hierarchy?
If they do (somehow) organize a force to retaliate, then I again would have no problem with bloodshed. But I feel this would not be a problem after the generations of people who have experience Capitalism have died, because then the revolution will be more secure and people would be truly feeling the benefits of communism.
I think our bigger worry should be fascists and other forms of authoritarian who tend to be able to organize well, and in some cases, are not necessarily economically noticed, but rather just power oriented. They are what REALLY scares me.