Socialism, markets, and supply and demand

[Joseph Stallion]

I was wondering if a market or markets can exist under socialism. In my opinion, if there is a market, there are commodities and a commodity is something that was monopolized by who ever is selling it. So I assumed that socialism can't have a market, but Wikipedia said that "A market economy is an economy in which decisions regarding investment, production and distribution are based on supply and demand, and prices of goods and services are determined in a free price system." This is weird because supply and demand is a theory and not a system for how prices are always set in a market. I know that if a person that is selling commodities used supply and demand to determine the price of his or her commodities, that person would be pricing his or her commodities below or above there value. This is not how the person selling the commodities becomes rich. So is the term market economy just a term used by the bourgeoisie to mean a market that is assumed to always follow the theory of supply and demand? Are socialists opposed to supply and demand. In my opinion supply and demand is a good way discourage people to get things that are scarce, but it does not say anything about the things value. Under capitalism supply and demand are usually not the thing that sets prices because you want to price things at there value to make money.

[ckaihatsu]

I was wondering if a market or markets can exist under socialism. In my opinion, if there is a market, there are commodities and a commodity is something that was monopolized by who ever is selling it. So I assumed that socialism can't have a market, but Wikipedia said that "A market economy is an economy in which decisions regarding investment, production and distribution are based on supply and demand, and prices of goods and services are determined in a free price system." This is weird because supply and demand is a theory and not a system for how prices are always set in a market. I know that if a person that is selling commodities used supply and demand to determine the price of his or her commodities, that person would be pricing his or her commodities below or above there value. This is not how the person selling the commodities becomes rich. So is the term market economy just a term used by the bourgeoisie to mean a market that is assumed to always follow the theory of supply and demand? Are socialists opposed to supply and demand. In my opinion supply and demand is a good way discourage people to get things that are scarce, but it does not say anything about the things value. Under capitalism supply and demand are usually not the thing that sets prices because you want to price things at there value to make money.

We know that, due to ever-lessening transaction costs and ever-increasing opportunities for interactions, the 'market' mentality will prevail -- as in black markets -- if there is no better, progressive alternative available. (It is the same conditions that make it ever-more-possible to materially *transcend* the market mechanism, as with open-source free software, for example.)

This topic came up in discussion two years ago, and I found a particular response to be cogent enough to create an illustrated diagram around the entire concept, below.

It's about distribution systems. Communism (socialism with communal distribution) is usually conceived as a gift economy, but I think a democratic-community model of distribution is a much more accurate depiction of what the intent is. Hypothetically you could have various cities democratically deciding to have different distribution models for different product groups. That seems the most workable model to me.

- Market
- Labor vouchers
- Communal-Democratic
- Gift

This is an excellent point, one I'm surprised we haven't seen earlier. You're placing these various, differentiated methods of distribution on a sliding scale according to the relative *abundance* of the component goods and services produced within.

Perhaps, then, one of the major tasks of a mass collectivized political economy administrating all of this would be to simply categorize *all* goods and services according to their abundant availability, on this sliding scale -- I picture it as a circular bulls-eye centralized point of (all) production, radiating its production outward, with gift distribution closest to the center (indicating abundance), then a bulk-pooled communal-democratic method outside of that, followed by a ratio-based labor voucher system outside of that, with a market-type system (of floating exchange rates) on the outlying peripheral area for least-common and more-specialized items.

tinyurl.com/6dxc8v6


Multi-Tiered System of Productive and Consumptive Zones for a Post-Capitalist Political Economy

[tuwix]

I was wondering if a market or markets can exist under socialism.

It can in transitional phase. Workers' owned enterprises can even compete against each other. But when there is considered a higher phase that means a communism, there is no market at all. It's pure distribution of goods.

[liberlict]

Wikipedia is right in it's definition. "Market" just has no place in socialist politics because socialists assume that no market will be needed under socialism.

[evermilion]

I like how knowing nothing about Marxism hasn't even slowed you down when it comes to telling Marxists all about it.

[Blake's Baby]

Liberlict is right. Marx didn't distinguish between 'socialism' and 'communism', so there is no market in socialist society.

Unless you want to use some other definition of socialism, of course, in which case you probably better explain the definition you're using.

[Sotionov]

Socialism = absence of oppression (hierarchy) and exploitation ("surplus value" and rent).

Types of socialist economic frameworks = market, mutualist, collectivist, communist.

[ckaihatsu]

Socialism = absence of oppression (hierarchy) and exploitation ("surplus value" and rent).

Types of socialist economic frameworks = market, mutualist, collectivist, communist.

Centralization-Abstraction Diagram of Political Forms