I've called the police on a drunk fellow pounding on my door at three in the morning. The police didn't get to the place in time; my neighbor got fed up and physically took him out the door.
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snitching/informing
(i didn't know where this should go, it was a toss-up between philosophy and politics)
do you feel that "alerting the authorities" is ever a sound and justifiable course of action? if so, what are the parameters under which you would inform? do you think someone who would snitch on one condition should inevitably be held suspicious of committing the act on all sensitive situations?
i myself have only ever "snitched" once. it was during the Beltway Sniper's attacks in 2002, and i had an insight that i hadn't heard anyone explore yet. when muhammad and malvo left the tarot card saying "call me god" at the scene of one of their shootings, the police considered it a religious message, and were trying to ferret out religious extremists based on the evidence. i called the tip line and told them they should be looking for ex-military types, since "god" is a very commonly used callsign by army and marine snipers. sure enough, it turned out that muhammad was indeed an "expert" level marksman with the us army.
to this day i struggle with what i did. on one hand, it helped to save the lives of who knows how many innocent people. on the other hand, i knowingly aided the police, who are as a whole the enemies of our cause. does the end justify the means? i really don't know.
I've called the police on a drunk fellow pounding on my door at three in the morning. The police didn't get to the place in time; my neighbor got fed up and physically took him out the door.
By dressing up U.S. imperialism in clothing that appealed to the sartorial preferences of the non-Communist left, the overt hand of U.S. imperialism was concealed behind honeyed phrases. Social democrats didn’t see imperialism; they saw humanitarian intervention, democracy promotion and the responsibility to protect vulnerable populations. Anarchists and Trotskyites didn’t see U.S. efforts to dominate other countries on Wall Street’s behalf; they saw the fight against tyrants, dictators and Stalinists.
Stephen Gowans, "U.S. imperialism: hidden in plain sight." what's left.
if peoples lives are in immediate danger or whatever i think calling the police makes sense, unfortunately there are not a lot of other options.
anything related to politics, your friends, that sort of stuff, no matter how innocuous, keep your mouth shut, always.
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
A two part series:
http://kasamaproject.org/repression/...new-cointelpro
http://kasamaproject.org/repression/...-of-informants
The basic theme: "Not a place of nuance: Informants are informants"
Some guidelines for discussion:
* A revolutionary movement needs to be as open as possible to the people (especially in regard to its policies and goals), and as closed as necessary to its enemies.
* A revolutionary movement needs a sober assessment of its enemies and strategic confidence in its cause.
* A revolutionary movement cannot afford the illusions or methods of social-democratic forces -- we need a much more realistic sense of the viscousness of the state, the flimsiness of legal protections and the conflict inherent to any serious liberation struggle.
* Infiltration deploys all the ugly powertrips of a sick society, and all the vices of human beings: Bribery of the financially desperate, corruption of the disaffected, ego flattery of the pathetic, exploitation of the damaged, blackmail of the legally compromised, and intimidations of the selfish -- these are some of their methods for creating informants. Informants don't appear like police types -- they are recruited from both the weak and damaged, from the grandiose and slick. Some come from without (as infiltrators), some come from within (as turn-coats). Informers offer intimacy and flattery. They exploit trust within community. They thrive on gossip and promote a culture of gossip. They often come with money, resources, creds, or useful skills ("What a god-send" becomes the reason to overlook the suspicious). Sometimes they just show up regularly, work hard, and listen without saying much at all.
* Commitment that seems to surpass understanding is a warning sign. Consciousness is often hard to fake.
* Sleazy people do sleazy things -- so often informing is not the only game they play. Sometimes ugly behavior toward women is a marker of larger corruption.
* Combat liberalism: A revolutionary movement needs to hold each other accountable for behavior. Not look the other way when suspicious things happen. Don't tolerate behaviors that endanger the whole. Deploy the wisdom and judgement of collectivity.
* Speak candidly and truthfully about problems.
* Both laxness and paranoia are corrosive to our purposes. Both are encouraged and desired by our stalkers. Combat naiveté with consciousness. Use our rich history to overcome our current inexperience.
* A movement that doesn't have secrets and can't keep secrets will never survive or flourish under repression.
* Security is not about protecting each individual, but of protecting the survival and functioning of a movement. It is about taking care of the future within the present, the whole within the part.
* Security cannot be ignored until repression starts. Security culture is about preparing to detect, deflect, avoid and survive repression well before it is actually unleashed.
Learn the laws: Know the legal limits of advocacy in the U.S. Understand how conspiracy laws, RICO, and the Patriot Act shaped government prosecutions. Study how police receive permissions to infiltrate and surveil. Be careful about money. Do not joke or talk loosely about potentially illegal things. Understand the hard legal constraints on international ties.
* The development of security extracts a cost from any network. Restricting the flow of protected information can restrict the flow of summation and accountability.
We need to do better than was done in the past -- and learn from both positive and negative features from previous experience (not just dismiss it without a thought).
Some specific needs of this moment:
* To start to develop rudimentary, effective security cultures -- without falling into paralyzing paranoia or a cultish secrecy. This is a creative process, and a political process.
* To be suspicious of ugly rumor campaigns and efforts to inflame differences into hostilities. Mutual suspicion, inter-left tensions, paranoia and the demoralization of betrayal are all goals of Counter-Intelligence Programs (Cointelpro).
* To be protective of personal information within the movement.
* To make sophisticated assessments of people and behaviors -- in a systematic, collective and non-liberal way.
* To learn the basic profiles and behaviors indicative of infiltrators, informers and agent provocateurs -- and develop careful ways of investigating any troubling whiff of bacon -- without recklessly triggering witch-hunts or destructive snitch-jacketing.
* To deploy nuanced policies of "need to know" -- where the movement and the people are able to evaluate their own progress, while some matters are kept private.
* To practice elementary and substantive solidarity for those under attack -- in a way that distinguishes contradictions among the people from contradictions between the people and the enemy.
* To work on the strategic perspective that deep roots among broad numbers of increasingly conscious people is the key basis for successful survival.
There is much to say about each point above. Much to learn from history. Much to update for our current times -- because of the reactionary legal changes after 9/11, the power of electronic surveillance and also the positive conditions following the birth of new radicalism (following the exhaustion of an older left).
Sure, keep most things between you and your fellows, however as in your example case, if there is a life-threatening emergency going on and your politics aren't even in the mix, don't feel bad about getting the police involved.
To save somebodies life, yes. Under any other circumstances, no. If its my life, it rather solve the problem with my .357.
Snitches get stitches, and end up in ditches, or burned like witches.
Last edited by ellipsis; 30th March 2013 at 10:02.
In this case, the immediate activities of the police were only tangentially related to the usual police function of suppressing the proletariat and the oppressed masses. Letting the Beltway Sniper shootings continue would have served nobody, especially not the labour movement (particularly since the police could use the shootings to institute a virtual state of emergency).Originally Posted by homegrown terror
If lives are at risk, if a rape or hate crime or speech needs to be reported, and there does not exist a realistic option for dealing with these matters outside the framework of the bourgeois police and the judiciary, I think informing is "permissible".
unfortunately almost never the case with snitches in pro-rev movements
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
snitching/informing
Doesn't mean I can't act like a tuff guy.
I was attacked in my car and then beaten in the street by an individual. When the police responded I refused to confirm the identity of my attacker, and when I was called to court to testify against him I refused to do so.
Only you can decide what is right in these situations, but my conscience is clean.
Put capitalism in a bag of rice.
snitching/informing
Some times I think that you are a hyperbole.
If i had of been you i may have settled that out of court once i got their identities either from the pigs or through other sources.
The only time i would call the cops is if i knew there was physical or sexual abuse going on in a home and i could personally not do anything about it. Granted my first reaction would be to grab the 12 guage or baseball bat depending on the circumstances and put a stop to it myself. If i for some reason could not i would not have a problem calling the police in a manner like this. For what little good they ever do mind you. The same goes for rapists. Those neanderthals should not be walking the street (though more often then not thanks to Harpers new tough on victimless crime bill they do much less time then a person caught pushing abit of coke) so having them locked up is the right thing to do in my opinion. I would teach the rapist some "manners" before handing him over to the police though.
When i was growing up here snitching was unheard of. If someone was fucking with you you fucked them back hard enough where they wouldn't bother you. If you called the cops you had better hope that your sorry ass would be gone pretty soon because not only would you be completely excluded from anything in the community and mistrusted by everyone but violent retaliation was rather likely. A baseball bat is a rather strong enforcer of the no snitching policy and it makes them see the errors of their ways very quickly. The police could not get a snitch into my high school or surrounding communities because of the close nit community and the fact that you where expected to look after your own no matter what. Back then people actually seemed to have qualms about snitching on people to get ahead but now all they have to do is snatch up some crack head kid, threaten him with abunch of bullshit and say that the slate will be wiped clean if he gives up some names and atleast half the time they will cough up the name of any drug suppliers, bootleggers or whatever rackets are profitable at the time. All it takes is one opportunist or just a dumb arsehole to fuck up everyones day.
My point certainly isn't that we should sit on our hands when bad things happen, but that we should always remember that no justice can be found in court rooms and jail cells.
Put capitalism in a bag of rice.
I don't think that the prison system is equipped to provide "justice" at all, but I'd rather a serial sex offender was kept away from the public where they couldn't harm anyone else, so depending on the circumstances, informing the police might be the lesser of evils.
"Her development, her freedom, her independence must come from and through herself. First, by asserting herself as a personality, and not as a sex commodity. Second, by refusing the right to anyone over her body; by refusing to bear children unless she wants them; by refusing to become a servant to God, the State, society, the husband, the family, etc. ... by freeing herself from the fear of public opinion and public condemnation. Only that, and not the ballot, will set woman free, will make her a force hitherto unknown in the world, a force for real love, for peace, for harmony; a force of divine fire, of life-giving; a creator of free men and women."~ Emma Goldman
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Your exactly right about that. Someone that i grew up with ended up doing a year as a result of some really dumb shit after a night of too much booze and crack. He was by no means a very tough guy or a gangster before he went in at all. When he got out though it was a entirely different story as he didn't last a week on the street because he celebrated his new found freedom by getting pissed drunk and smashing the fuck out of someone. One thing he said to me the last time we talked really stuck with me. He said "i don't give a fuck about prison now but the first week i was after doin in there i was scared to shit b'y no fuckin lie". Maybe if they had let him go right then and there he would have learned his lesson maybe? Who knows but one thing i do know is that prison does nothing but bring out the worst in people. Also you stop being scared of prison and become used to it.
You are certainly right in that justice has nothing to do with the justice system. I learned that it was all about who you knew really as opposed to any sense of justice.
Yeah and that is the only reason i would call the cops on some sex offender. Well that and i wouldn't want to go down for murder on account of one of them
No doubt, violence in our communities (and I don't mean radicals, I mean like the physical neighborhoods we live in and shit) is real, I'm sure plenty of you are much like me and live in the hood or damn close to it or whatever. I'm sitting in my bedroom right now listening to people yell at each other outside.
Maybe some dude from down the street smacks his girl while I'm out getting the mail, right. What do I do? Say something to him, put myself out there as a target? Call the police? (which makes me a target for being a snitch, and brings up ethical issues about how the police are going to treat an angry young black dude)
This shit is complicated, and there are no clear answers, but one thing, that I know, for me personally, is that talking to the pigs is not the answer. But in taking that position, I must then either take some responsibility myself (now I am obligated to say something to the guy hitting his girlfriend, and I am making myself a target), or I have to ignore shit and deal with the fact that I might be enabling some really fucked up stuff through my inaction.
Put capitalism in a bag of rice.
Even if the police are bourgeois they can be useful in some cases. Like they saved my mother and sister countless times when they were being beaten by abusive men. Of course in Canada carrying a gun to prevent this kind of thing isn't an option either; it's essentially either call the cops or watch your family be beaten.
Economic Left/Right: -9.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.15
"There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin
can't get a gun? buy a crossbow. at close range they can be just as deadly, and are a LOT quieter.
Those are restricted in Canada too.
Economic Left/Right: -9.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.15
What about a katana?
By dressing up U.S. imperialism in clothing that appealed to the sartorial preferences of the non-Communist left, the overt hand of U.S. imperialism was concealed behind honeyed phrases. Social democrats didn’t see imperialism; they saw humanitarian intervention, democracy promotion and the responsibility to protect vulnerable populations. Anarchists and Trotskyites didn’t see U.S. efforts to dominate other countries on Wall Street’s behalf; they saw the fight against tyrants, dictators and Stalinists.
Stephen Gowans, "U.S. imperialism: hidden in plain sight." what's left.
