Is debating with theologists pointless?

[Questionable]

I couldn't help but notice that Facebook has exploded with secular vs. theologist debates over the fact that the Supreme Court is taking a look at anti-gay marriage laws.

Normally I avoid these because participants on both sides tend to be petty and uneducated, but I ended up getting pulled into one by a friend. The person I was debating with was an Evangelical Christian who had no argument against gay marriage except the people who did it were going to hell. Eventually I just said I didn't care about going to hell, and the "debate" ended.

But debates with theologists tend to be full of these kinds of incidents. Because their entire argument depends upon the premise of the bible being God's word, it automatically does not apply to anyone who does not share that view. No matter if these people try to approach the issue from a seemingly logical standpoint, they will eventually break down and just admit that they're against because "God says it's wrong." Therefore, the discussion reaches a brick wall, because nobody who doesn't believe in God has any reason to believe what they're saying, but the theologist will not engage in any grounds outside of their wholly subjective religious beliefs.

Is there any reason to discuss politics with these people, or will it always lead to the "God says so" wall?

[blake 3:17]

Do you actually mean a theologian? Or a theist? Or a Christian Fundamentalist? And atheism, humanism, and secularism aren't identical either.

[Deity]

Through my experience with these people it is extremely pointless. I've attempted to have a political discussion with an extreme Christian for over an hour about capitalism, and his argument was that the starving people around the world are ok because it's gods will. He told me there was no need to try and change the world because this is god punishing us for eve eating an apple.

Despite my numerous attempts at reasoning, starving people were gods will.

[Taters]

I've never found debates with evangelicals or bible literalists to be especially fruitful. It usually ends up as you said: "God said it. I believe it. That settles it." (That's a popular bumper sticker, by the way). This isn't to say all of them are a lost cause, I was once one myself (but that might have been purely by accident).
You have to realize that when they go to church every Sunday sermons often include the idea that everything contrary to what's being taught must be consciously rejected or everlasting hellfire will be the result. Constant indoctrination and reinforcement of their beliefs every week contributes to this stonewalling you've seen.

[Questionable]

Do you actually mean a theologian? Or a theist? Or a Christian Fundamentalist? And atheism, humanism, and secularism aren't identical either.

I was referring to someone who subscribes to any religious theology, be it Christian or Muslim or Buddhist. I apologize if I used any of the terms incorrectly.

[Sidagma]

I was referring to someone who subscribes to any religious theology, be it Christian or Muslim or Buddhist. I apologize if I used any of the terms incorrectly.

Then you're making a horrendous overgeneralization based on your interactions with a handful of Christians. The problem you're speaking about is one that comes entirely from the privilege that Christians enjoy in American society It would be absurd for a member of a minority religion to demonstrate the same sense of entitlement that Christians do in thinking they're relevant to American lawmaking.

I think it would help to acknowledge that you being an atheist (right?) and them being a Christian does put a cultural gap between the two of you. You're both coming to the conversation with a different rulebook, as it were -- you have your values and they have theirs. Which means that you can handle it a number of ways!

You could argue theologically. You could use evidence from Christian texts and traditions to clarify the nature of Hell and who goes there.

You could make sure you're on the same page on the role of church and government. Assuming this person doesn't think that everything that some Christians believe will send you to hell should be illegal, for instance, you could use that to try to get them to agree that gay marriage should be legal.

You can educate them about the role of the state in American society, and about marriage within that state. You could point out that marriage was a private contract between two adults and their families, and not a state-backed institution, for most of American history. The state's involvement came after the Civil War, when it was used to prevent interracial marriage.

Of course, you could probably just ignore them and yell louder. This has the downside of not educating them at all, when potentially you could have had an opportunity to influence someone one-on-one. Sometimes, though, it isn't worth your time.

What's probably not worth your time, and fucking rude anyway, is to try to convert them out of their religion. That doesn't mean the two of you can't come to an agreement. It just means you're gonna do you, and they're gonna do them, and there is room in any discussion and any movement for people of most any religious tradition.

[Questionable]

Then you're making a horrendous overgeneralization based on your interactions with a handful of Christians.

Please don't talk down to me like this. I've lived around Christians my entire life. My entire family and extended family are Christian, as are many of my friends. The region I live in is extremely religious. I encounter them every day and it's very common for me to become engaged in political debates with them. This accusation that I'm "overgeneralizing" based on a "handful" is rather rude to me. I encounter this attitude from Christians all the time.

I'm fully aware that there are going to be exceptions to the rule. Obviously a wealthy white man reads the bible differently than a poor inner-city black girl. But in my own experiences in my particular region, homophobia is the general attitude I've encountered in many Christians, even if some are less proclaimed than others.

[blake 3:17]

My mother is a conservative and her main volunteer work is head of her local church and the main thing she wanted to get done was have the local church adopt a pro-gay/lesbian marriage policy.

I know it's fucking Kanada but...

Edited to add: Not just Kanada, but Toronto, den of sin.

[Sidagma]

Please don't talk down to me like this. I've lived around Christians my entire life. My entire family and extended family are Christian, as are many of my friends. The region I live in is extremely religious. I encounter them every day and it's very common for me to become engaged in political debates with them. This accusation that I'm "overgeneralizing" based on a "handful" is rather rude to me. I encounter this attitude from Christians all the time.

I'm fully aware that there are going to be exceptions to the rule. Obviously a wealthy white man reads the bible differently than a poor inner-city black girl. But in my own experiences in my particular region, homophobia is the general attitude I've encountered in many Christians, even if some are less proclaimed than others.

Apologies; I should have said "a handful of Christian denominations". I wasn't trying to minimize your experience with Christianity, which I'm sure is extensive, or to dismiss the pervasiveness of this sort of malarkey in American politics with "but they're not all like that!!!1". Christianity is a diverse religion, especially on a worldwide scale, and I'm hesitant to put everyone under the same umbrella, especially when it comes to this specific American political tendency.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

Because their entire argument depends upon the premise of the bible being God's word, it automatically does not apply to anyone who does not share that view.

You don't know many theologians, do you? Every theologian I hav had the pleasure to speak to has drummed up Duns Scotus or St. Aquinas, rather than bible thumping.

[homegrown terror]

http://www.cracked.com/article_15759...-agree-on.html

it's a long article, but has a very reasonable and useful set of guidelines for such debates. i'd suggest you read it, then ask any christian you frequently debate with to read it before they try to bible-thump you again

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

What an obtuse article. Not all of us believe in some magical objective morality, nor do all of us hold puritanical bourgeois sexual mores. And not all of us care about the sacred intrinsic value of a bag of reactionary shit like Falwel. Focusing on the negative effects of religion is very easy; religious people do it for us.

[blake 3:17]

Terry Eagleton's book The God Debate is excellent. It tears the "New Atheists" to shit. He is writing as a Marxist, an atheist, and former Catholic.

One of the best and most basic points he makes is that people like Dawkins and Maher attack Christianity as it's stupidest. To engage in an honest debate, he says you gotta take your intellectual opponent at their best.

Apparently Hitchens claims that Martin Luther King wasn't really a Christian... WTF?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Bible thumpers have as much to do with Theologians as weird youtube Maoist Third Worldists have to do with Marxist theorists.

One can find a theologian's argument against gay marriage based fundamentally on idealist metaphysical assumptions about the nature of reality, but it doesn't make them an ignoramus. However, your average Baptist preacher going on about the sinful lives of others deserves intellectual scorn.

Too many Leftists make the foolish error that anyone who disagrees or who is operating under different philosophical assumptions is not just wrong but wrong because they are an idiot.

[Klaatu]

I have done a bit of research into Biblical writings on homosexuality. Most of the scripture is based upon pure conjecture and dubious interpretation. For example, it may refer to "doing things to men" (bear in mind that "men" is a "politically incorrect" form of person) (e.g. fireMAN as opposed to fireFIGHTER)

Also, the Bible condemns MAN-BOY relationships (as it should) and promiscuous behavior (and if so, why not encourage gay marriage in the first place --- married people are less likely to be promiscuous --- at least in theory. That being said, The Bible does not explicitly prohibit gay marriage at all.

So if someone argues this on a religious premise, this is all the more reason to prohibit the government from proscribing gay marriage: according to the U.S. First Amendment, the government cannot endorse any specific religious view or opinion, simply because there exists a "wall of separation" between church and state. Church can have any opinion it chooses, but it should not be able to impose it's will upon those of different opinion.

[Philosophos]

most of the times theists are exactly as you describe them, but there are some of them that can challenge you. Start a conversation if you want and if you see that he goes for the "God said it so it's right" just ignore him. Otherwise enjoy turning down his arguments one by one and watch become an atheist.

[Prof. Oblivion]

Debating with theists is as useless as debating with people on this site that don't agree with you ideologically.

[Crixus]

Would you have a debate with me, right now? The topic is:

Did Xenu REALLY show up billions of years ago and imprison alien souls into our bodies therefore necessitating we get audited every other day for a small charge of $119.99?

The only people worth debating are agnostics.

[Brutus]

In my experience they are a stubborn as mules, but so am I.
Quite frankly, I would have better luck convincing a wall to move of its own accord.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

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One can find a theologian's argument against gay marriage based fundamentally on idealist metaphysical assumptions about the nature of reality, but it doesn't make them an ignoramus. However, your average Baptist preacher going on about the sinful lives of others deserves intellectual scorn.

\

So fancy language for what is practically the same crap = Less of an idiot?

Bugger off.