Kosher Anti-Zionism is another term for the phenomenon.
The Palestine Solidarity Movement: A Recipe for Kosher anti-Zionism
It means the Palestinian Jews converted to Islam a long time ago.
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"crypto-zionism" LOL
Out of curiosity, if Palestinians are the "Real Jews", does that mean they are not Arabs? Or they are Arabized Jews? Or were the Jews always Arabs?
Kosher Anti-Zionism is another term for the phenomenon.
The Palestine Solidarity Movement: A Recipe for Kosher anti-Zionism
It means the Palestinian Jews converted to Islam a long time ago.
Does this mean Palestinians are not Arabs?
The link Labour Aristocrat Killer posted talks of a "a religious observance of and adherence to the dogma of ‘the holocaust’."
Wow. So I guess here we have a prime example of what we are talking about in this thread.
A comment on the website:
This says it all really.
What do the anti-nationalists think of Black nationalism then? And Palestinian nationalism?
what do you think we think of it? it isn't that difficult to work out.
Until now, the left has only managed capital in various ways; the point, however, is to destroy it.
"nationalism" of any stripe is to be opposed, since it's a divisive feature of capitalist society. bigotry and discrimination of any kind have long been tools of the capitalists and statists. they play upon the uglier base instincts of the human psyche, give the proletariat the bullets to fire into their own heads, and the heads of their comrades. the division system is a tool to keep the workers from uniting under a class-conscious banner and casting off the deadweight they labor under. black nationalism, in particular, is insidious because it takes a people who have been particularly oppressed, and tells them that, rather than fight the system which perpetuates oppression, they should turn their aggression upon their white comrades, who truth be told are far more their brothers and sisters than the true enemy: the CEO, the senator, the governor, the police officer and the foreman.
I don't know. I am sympathetic to both Black and Palestinian nationalisms. There are inherent dangers in any sort of nationalism.
Anyways...
I am much less concerned with anti-Zionism and the fine contours of Palestinian ideology than working towards a just peace in the Middle East. There are Zionists who do very good work on basic human rights issues and an emergent sector of Zionists supporting the BDS campaign.
Left reformists or ultra leftists who oppose BDS may use this to undermine the BDS campaign, but I could I could not care less.
From the Daily Beast : Liberal Zionists Should Support BDS
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...pport-bds.html
Anyone who argues that Palestinians are the "real Jews" is missing the point. It's certainly true that today's Palestinians come from old Hebrews, Canaanites and Samaritans who converted to Christianity and Islam. It's also probably true that various groups of Hebrews from Palestine went abroad or were sold into slavery. People convert religions, marry outside their ethnic groups, and move all the time. For all we know half of the Mediterranean has some ancestor from Palestine.
The real issue is that property relations, the state and the armed forces are being used by one ethno-linguistic group to deny rights to another. The issues of genetics and heritage are non-issues.
Socialist Party of Outer Space
The full quote is:
"This relatively small incident demonstrates how the Palestine Solidarity Movement is not only subject to Zionist bullying, infiltration, and lobbying, but more importantly cultural indoctrination. We are instilled with a cardinal fear of discussing the holocaust outside of the officially accepted narrative – a ‘thoughtcrime’ in this democracy and beacon of free speech known as Great Britain.
The knee-jerk ‘we do not tolerate anti-Semitism‘ emotional reaction is sadly typical, and it is trotted out before one iota of thought has been given to the content and substance of the discussion.
It is incredibly sad and disheartening to see that the Palestine Solidarity Movement is utterly beholden to Zionism’s biggest rhetorical weapon: false charges of anti-Semitism coupled with a religious observance of and adherence to the dogma of ‘the holocaust’."
That you choose to quote it out of context shows your allegiance to Zionism, which is a racist European ideology.
lol
That you think a comment on an article means anything at all is hysterical.
This is the reality of Israel: anti-African race riots:
African asylum seekers injured in Tel Aviv race riots
+ YouTube Video
This is because "Israel Belongs to the White Man," according to neo-Nazi Zionists.
People like O'Keefe should be made unwelcome.
They're not the same thing, but actual anti-semites like to parade around as "anti-zionists" and pretend that zionism is something other than the colonization of the middle east. Like in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion".
why stop there?
'holocaust revisionism' is just a codeword for holocaust denial used by its proponents to try and pretend they are simply ' enriching our understanding of history on an ongoing basis by examining and documenting the facts,' when any cursory look at what they are suggesting makes it very clear what their agenda is and i can't fault anyone for taking a 'no platform' stance on that.
i think anyone who has spent much time trolling nazis or arguing with holocaust deniers will recognize some of this language, and i do have to wonder about a piece which spends a lot of time on holocaust 'revisionism' ending with a line about 'exposing all deceptions.' this is some dodgy shit.
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
It's obvious that the anti zionism = anti semitism thing is used by supporters of Israel to discredit all criticism.
However, the idea that zionism is worse and particularly different than other nationalisms is a bourgeois, reactionary notion and anti-zionism as a specific politics is therefore anti-communist, if not necessarily antisemitic.
Last edited by newdayrising; 19th March 2013 at 15:58. Reason: Legibility
No. I'm a born-again evangelical Christian, and we're stereotyped as being fanatically pro-Israel, but I'm against it. My entire religion is based on Jewish history and their practices so I'm in no way anti-semitic, but I'm (generally) against Israel for the human rights violations that they commit against the Palestinians.
When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die - Jean-Paul Sartre
A slaveholder who, through cunning and violence shackles his slaves in chains - and a slave who, through cunning and violence, breaks the chains - let not the contemptible eunuchs tell us that they are equals before a court of morality! - Leon Trotsky
Sartre, Existentialism is a Humanism
Bordiga, Party and Class
Pannekoek, Workers Councils
Luxemburg, Reform or Revolution?
Kollontai, Theses on Communist Morality in the Sphere of Marital Relations
I think it's perfectly consistent to support Palestinian national liberation and be a Marxist. Lenin's analysis essentially has us take the national question on a case-by-case basis, so that no one-size-fits-all strategy can just be plugged in every situation.
Israel is special in the international community. It gets away with defying the wishes of the international community and even its allies. This is not because of some vast Jewish conspiracy, but rather due to the well-organized Zionist lobbying core in the US and the geopolitical need for the US to maintain a colonial outpost in the Middle East. After all, there must be some explaining that the only UN resolution in history to be revoked is the one that determines Zionism a form of racism. The focus on Israel is an outcry against a rogue apartheid state that acts with impunity, yet gets US political and financial aid seemingly unconditionally. They won't even admit that they have nuclear weapons.
It just so happens because of the historical intersections of the West, the state that claims to represent the Jewish people is the only one with the political capital to maintain an antiquarian colonial state in the age of indirect colonial domination. It hurts me as a Jew to see what's happened to Jewishness via its association with Zionism, but that's no reason to shy away from the facts of ethnic cleansing and genocide (taken by their denotations). Also for me, it's a struggle to retain the old Yiddish-speaking Bundist internationalist culture as the real Jewish tradition, instead of this Hebrew-speaking manufactured right-wing "national Judaism"; Jewish leftists have always made comparisons between Zionist brutality and fascism, since it is obvious where our people learned how to use racial ideology, paramilitary terror, and forced labor to maintain power.
And yes, there are anti-Jewish people that hide behind anti-Zionism, just like there are anti-Jews who hide behind anti-capitalism; that doesn't mean we should line up to make soft defenses of capitalism to not seem "anti-Semetic". And yes, Arabs are Semetic peoples and it is bigoted to reserve the word for only the right kind of Semetic peoples (seriously, how the hell do you justify that?).
For a nominally revolutionary board, the politics here boggle my mind.
Last edited by cantwealljustgetalong; 19th March 2013 at 16:08.
You're entitled to your opinion.
Even though I don't believe national liberation is a solution for anything, I don't equate supporting it for Palestine with being an "anti-zionist" per se. You can be be a zionist, meaning, being for a Jewish state and being for a Palestinean one as well.
I do think though that the role of communists is not to build new nation states but to smash them. And that's not just sloganeering, it just seems clear that bourgeois states have nothing to offer the working class anymore and supporting them just drives them towards supporting their own exploiters and dying for the right to be exploited by "their own people". Also, there's no "liberation" under imperialism, just picking different blocs to be a part of.
I don't understand how we can claim to be on the side of the oppressed, but wash our hands of national oppressions because of our theoretical commitments about how the nation-state is "bourgeois". So it doesn't seem to matter to you that a racist occupying force has crushed the relevant Palestinian economic and bureaucratic organs under the jackboot of militarism, because it's too bourgeois to care about colonialism. I get that nation-states aren't the answer to all problems, but this is a historical injustice that will not melt away in a revolutionary movement.
How the hell can you be a Zionist and for a Palestinian state, when the reality of Zionism is one of ethnic cleansing of the land of Palestine? It's like saying you support the American colonialism and the indigenous American Indians at the same time, ignoring all the while that the former is dedicated to the eradication of the latter.
The same way you can be for national liberation when in reality it means oppression and exploitation by one's own kind. Just look at Palestine's "nationally-liberated" neighbors.
Apart from that, zionism actually means being for a jewish fatherland. So people who believe in a two state solution could actually be zionists and pro-palestinean state. Chomsky's one of those actually.
The main thing is that labels such as "zionist" mean very little if anything. "Nationalist" and "for national liberation", or even "pro-israel" or "pro-palestinean state" have more meaning, I suppose.
One can have exactly the same politics on this issue and be a nominal "zionist" or "anti-zionist" as long as they support the existence of both states. It's a fairly popular postion on both sides actually.
