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the "specialfication" of the israeli/palestinian conflict among the left and society
first let me give on big bold disclaimer; there is no excuse for the behavior and policies of the Israeli state, the occupation of Palestine, the pervasive civil and institutional racism in Israeli society, the path that zionism took and the wide support it gets under the Israeli "jewish" population.
did i make that ^ sufficiently clear?
o.k. to the topic I wanted to discuss, in my many years here and in everyday life, both in general society and in the radical left I constantly hear the (again very fucked up) situation in Israel and Palestine discussed in terms like "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide", arab israeli's described as "2nd class citizens viewed as sub-humans" etc etc.
knowing a lot of people from both Israel ("jewish" and "arab") and Palestine, and non native people who lived there for extensive times, who all fought against the occupation and oppose the situation in Israel and Palestine, having long talks about what goes on there and what life for them and others looked like i believe i can say that the picture painted by many people from elsewhere bears no or little resemblance to the actual situation on the ground of everyday life.
Again, there is no excuse for what happens there but its a lot closer (but nothing like!) to northern-Ireland during the worst of times than it is to Rwanda or nazi-germany.
I really wonder where people get these warped ideas of what is happening there and what for example life for arab-israeli's entails? Do ppl just get an distorted idea because of the prisma of the media that only reports on the shit and not on daily life? Why are Israeli's (or must I say Israeli's with an "jewish" etnicity as the 20.3 % arab population seemingly is never included in "Israeli's") always grouped as a monolithic group of zionist racists that want all non-jews at least deported and at worst exterminated?
Why the constant focus on Israel and Palestine like its some form of exceptional situation while other occupations and colonization projects in the rest of the world or even the region get little or no attention? Why is there no room for the nuances and material conditions that lead those of the Israeli "Jewish" populace that support the state's behavior to their supprt while all faults and problems with/within the Palestinian administration and resistance are brushed away?
why? why? why?
why do i always get the feeling that the majority of those that criticize Israel esp on the radical "left" are just the exact flip side of those zionists that declare Israel the promised land and the land of milk and honey that can do no wrong?
why do so many who always have the mouth full of making a throughout factual rational analysis seemingly make an exception when it comes to Israel/Palestine?
What makes this fucked-up situation so exceptionally fucked-up in a world full of fucked-up situations that people who have no connection to either Israel or Palestine make "anti-zionism" their primary tendency on a revolutionary-leftist discussion board?
Why are Israeli "Jews" born half a century later as easily or even more easily blamed for what happened in 1948 than for voting for the zionist(used as in settler/occupation supporting)-right? no one blames the general white US population of today for the segregation (that only kind of ended in 1970's) or the treatment of american Natives (that continues till today)? I see US, British, French and Dutch "leftists" throw themselves with all they got in the fight against "zionism" but not lifting a finger for the many colonies their own nation still occupies and exploits. Why do Israeli's seemingly need to carry all the "sins of the father" next to their own?
tldr; what makes Israel/Palestine and Israeli's/Palestine's so damn exceptional?
The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. What matter where, if I be still the same, And what I should be, all but less than he Whom thunder hath made greater?
Here at least We shall be free
Well there's multiple reasons for this I guess. First of all, from what I gather from the quite sizable amount of Jewish friends I have, the Israeli state does bear all the characteristics, in word and deed, of an apartheid state that exercises a particular type of ethnical biopolitics that, while not ethnical cleansening in the Rwandese or Balkan fashion, does seem to be geared towards the construction of a homogenic 'imagined community' through enforcing a sense of ethnical cleanliness (the numerous campaigns aimed at preventing mixed marriages, the treatment of Ethiopian jews, etc.), but I believe that is largely because the Israeli state's legitimacy is very closely tied to notions of ethnic community (the jewish promised land, with the holocaust serving the structural function Armenius and the Teutoburg battle serves to the Germans, for example). So while I don't think words like 'genocide' and the various comparisons to Auschwitz are correct (though tbh I can't be arsed with the PC attitude towards this kind of thing), its not exactly a stroll in the park or a casually nationalist/racist state either.
The reason why the conflict is such a focal point as compared to the many other imperialist conflicts is quite a mixed bag I think. First of all, its a major geopolitical hotbed as the Israeli state is and remains the transatlantic beachhead in the Middle-East, so its not more than logical that the media focus on this. Secondly, it seems to be more of a clear-cut 'well-armed western whiteys against poor ill-equipped foreign darkeys' (even though most Europeans couldn't tell an Israeli and Palestinian apart) thing than the various other imperialist conflicts which today often no longer directly involve the 'occidental' states. Thirdly, a large section of the 'anti-imperialist left' has historically invested a lot of political capital in this conflict, entire organisations, campaigns, academic careers and political traditions have been build around this conflict and the preservation of this tradition and the invested political capital is crucial to the functioning of many anti-impie leftist organisations. Besides, it being such a well-known and polarizing issue, it has the tendency to draw out large numbers of people who would otherwise not be concerned with 'some war in some sandbox far away' who can then be politicized into joining this or that leftist sect.
"Of Man's first disobedience, and the fruit
Of that forbidden tree..."
- John Milton -
"The place of the worst barbarism is that modern forest that makes use of us, this forest of chimneys and bayonets, machines and weapons, of strange inanimate beasts that feed on human flesh"
- Amadeo Bordiga
I dunno how general this is, in america for example the 'radical social democrats' (dunno what better term to use) make far more concessions to israel than they would do to anything else (for example magazines like dissent), this isn't the case in europe. I suppose the 'far-left' is pretty 'anti-zionist' all over and yeah most don't really know what they are talking about.
the fact that israel is part of the western geopolitical bloc obviously plays a large role, so for example turkey is not and doesn't get so much criticism for its treatment of the kurds (would this change if it joined the eu?).
ummm, I think the history of zionism is important too. the idea was that anti-semitism could never be defeated in europe and so the only hope the jews had was to separate themselves, in contrast class organisations like the bund in poland argued that 'our home is here' and that there could be struggle against anti-semitism. the war destroyed the latter and out of the back of it israel was formed. I think it's important to challenge this idea (and to understand it grew upon the defeat of class movements) or else there is no hope for any kind of anti-racist struggle.
israel is a settler state and it was built upon ethnic cleansing (I don't think the nakba can be described as anything else), gaza is a prison and the west bank is still colonised.
israel is not fascist, does not practice genocide and is not the only settler state in the world.
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In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
Turkey is a important NATO member, Dutch and German troops are currently stationed in Turkish Kurdistan...
and just to name a few more; France got a ton of official and semi-official colonies, Belgium is still neck deep in parts in africa where they butchered millions, the US still occupies Puerto Rico, has army bases on the soil of dozens of foreign nations and has a disgusting treatment of native inhabitant and other minorities, austrailia displaces still natives and was stealing their kids and sterilizing them on a massive scale, even the scandinavian countries, supposed beacons of social democracy, have colonies and/or systematic and widespread popular discrimination of their indigenous populations...
The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. What matter where, if I be still the same, And what I should be, all but less than he Whom thunder hath made greater?
Here at least We shall be free
leftists are as capable as rightwing nuts and liberals of hyperbole and overly emotive politics. And once you have a debate full of hyperbole, any attempt at nuance translates to support for the other side. It's complicated to, for instance, explain the distinction between "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" without someone wrongly accusing you of being pro-zionist etc. There is no Zionist Auschwitz, however there is a clear policy of pressuring Arabs to move out of their homes in Jerusalem, the countryside of the Negev, parts of the West Bank etc. Saying that what is happening is not technically "genocide" however is going to lead some less rational people to suppose that you're really supporting those policies.
I think one thing which makes the debate particularly annoying for some on the Left is the number of vocal and self righteous pro-Israel advocates running around at the same time that Palestinians are routinely suffering from severe ethnic discrimination. However, people on the left write off the interests of Israeli Jews in a way that they never would write off White Americans, Sunni Arabs/Turks in Kurdistan, White Latin Americans and so on. Too often any attempt to actually understand that group is written off, it seems, as some form of Zionism even if the advocate in question is sympathetic with the Palestinian struggle (I guess that Zionism is the target of Left-McCarthyism).
In fact, there's the off chance that someone will accuse psycho of being pro-zionist based on this thread.
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yeah this is true. I think what I meant to say was that turkey still has occasional anti-west posturing which people tend to talk up so they can support its (albeit limited) anti-israeli gestures while ignoring that turkish kurds are treated much the same as palestinians.
I'm bound to stay
Where you sleep all day
Where they hung the jerk
That invented work
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
yeah. this.
I'm bound to stay
Where you sleep all day
Where they hung the jerk
That invented work
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
I feel like the US media talks about Israel a whole lot more than Turkey tho. You don't often hear about politicians talking about how important Turkey is as an American ally and you don't have weirdo ultra-powerful christian fundamentalists making a big deal about Turkey either.
But for me personally, I remember when I was in sunday school hella long ago, one of the teachers literally said "Israel is the good guys and the Palestinians are terrorists". Even then when I was a lil baby I was like "uhhhh all of them?"
That sorta always stuck with me, so that's personally why the Israel/Palestine issue was a thing for me.
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I sympathise with the OP's general sentiment, yet I do think that he was definitely too soft on Israel when he compared it to French island colonies around the world. Last time I checked, France doesn't demolish the homes on, say, Martinique for her own settlers, and inhabitants of all French colonies, afaik, have the right to vote in French presidential elections nowadays, which is not the case for West Bank Palestinians.
And there's definitely no French counterpart of Gaza bombing runs and blockade. Admittedly, there's no Martinique counterpart of Hamas, but Israeli actions strengthen Hamas anyway.
Same with Puerto Rico. I would hardly compare it with Gaza and West Bank.
Also, Scandinavian colonies? Where? Surely stuff like Jan Mayen doesn't count as a "colony"?
It is, however, legitimate to point out that all Israelis should not bear the responsibility for the actions of their government, just like Australians/"Euro-Americans" shouldn't bear the responsibility for their own government even during the worst periods of ethnic cleansing perpetuated by the USA or Australia (some periods in the history of "U$A" and other European settler colonies are fully compatible, and may be even worse then what Israel is doing right now).
South Africa, with some caveats, some pro-Israel and some anti-, is a good comparison example.
Good points in general, still makes me wonder why so many leftists fall in the trap of making such moves, even whites in south-africa, back then an unmistakably official appartheid state with (excluding the occupation) far more brutal exploitation and discrimination of their (in their case) majority where not as equalized with the policies of their state as israeli Jews are for the treatment of their minority. Don't leftists see that this plays right in the hands of those that all critisism of israel equals anti-semitism?
The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. What matter where, if I be still the same, And what I should be, all but less than he Whom thunder hath made greater?
Here at least We shall be free
What could play a role is the very vocal right-wing/zionist segments of the Jewish community living outside Israel, who are quite visible and prominent in the media pushing their views.
"Of Man's first disobedience, and the fruit
Of that forbidden tree..."
- John Milton -
"The place of the worst barbarism is that modern forest that makes use of us, this forest of chimneys and bayonets, machines and weapons, of strange inanimate beasts that feed on human flesh"
- Amadeo Bordiga
It does seem odd, for example that when Israel launching an assault on Gaza, in Britain you will have 1000s on the streets demonstrating, yet when Turkey launches new attacks on Kurds there is little if no opposition and demonstrations on the streets (of Britain at least; this may be a different scenario in other European states were a more sizeable Kurdish community lives)
there is a semi-sizeable kurdish community in london, when the activists got killed in paris there was a march of about 3,000 in stoke newington.
I think another comparison is when the sri lankan civil war was coming to an end and the government was cluster bombing the fuck out of the north and ramming everyone they found into concentration camps, there was a march of about 100,000 tamils through london but zero involvement from the left.
I'm bound to stay
Where you sleep all day
Where they hung the jerk
That invented work
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains.
You can't broad brush Israel.
There are certainly areas that are subject to the worst desecration of Palestinian land by Israeli settlers. There are areas that are war zones (downtown Jerusalem) where NOBODY is safe. There are areas that are much like any other middle class neighbourhood, and there are communes. There are poor Arab neighbourhoods, and certainly they are treated very badly by many Israelis. There are also communities in the desert - the Druze and Bedouin people - and they seem to be treated with some respect by Israelis, but are just shitted on in the law (like not allowed to serve in the army and shit like that).
It's a tough place. It's a warzone.
changed the thread title to more accurately reflect its content.
The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. What matter where, if I be still the same, And what I should be, all but less than he Whom thunder hath made greater?
Here at least We shall be free
I think there is a more developed media and activist networks around both sides of this Israeli-Palestine debate which most people filter their information through. I admit that a good chunk of what I know is from what I read online or see in documentaries. That being said I live in an area with a sizable amount of Middle-Eastern people- Kurds, Arabs, and Iranians mostly, and among Arabs there are both Muslim and Christian Palestinians who have some personal connection to the mess there. I know one old guy, he's really nationalist to a fault but it's kind of sad seeing him waste away here because his original home was somewhere near where Tel Aviv is now (Jaffa then), it's unlikely he'll be buried where his ancestors were. Of course no one is giving him "right to return".
At the same time I do have a close friend who is Jewish, with roots in old Russia, but his family (or at least his father's side) is fiercely nationalistic in Israel. He even got sent to one of those youth trips from his synagogue (he's from a conservative congregation), whose purpose is essentially to build up patriotism among overseas Jewish youth. I never talk about Palestine with him, but I know his father is very loud and opinionated. All I know though is that he (the friend) isn't very sympathetic to Netanyahu and really aggressive actions against Palestinians.
I think what helps with the Palestinian issue is that some of the shit that happens is really overkill, especially how they've been evicted from their homes to make way for new settlers, and the whole factor that they've essentially lost their old homes. There are other minorities with similar problems but their issues aren't as well publicized and they can become politically problematic for some left groups- for example Iraqi Kurds were not, for obvious reasons, sympathetic to Saddam Hussein, and would not work to oppose the war- and in some cases, encouraged it- and I think consequently got seen as being American tools.
Two long running-cases that come to mind about minority treatments are the Tamils in Syria Lanka and Kurds in Turkey and Iraq in the 80s. There were stages in these points where you saw aggressive assimilation policies, military government, repression of activists, if not outright mass killings on the genocide scale. IMO these don't seem to get media coverage too heavily on either side, be it sympathetic to the minorities or trying to defend the government's actions. I think it might help that Israel has been more deeply intertwined in US foreign policy and before 9/11 was often the US's reason for being so involved in the Middle-East, Israel was involved in some manner.
Similar to bricolage I notice when these communities turned out it was usually just them and no one else (though Kurdish and Tamil communities aren't as large here as they are in some parts of Europe). The only time I saw other groups was some cynical exploitation of the mostly Iraqi Kurdish community where pro-war groups got them to show up to urge intervention in Iraq.
Other than the obvious moral issues because Israel is a nuclear state as is Pakistan and soon to be Iran/Syria. These religious fanatics on both sides are going to be the end of us which is why a no state atheist solution is the best route but until that happens, which is very unlikely at the moment, Israel needs to stop regurgitating NAZI policies (segregation, apartheid, eugenics etc).
Psycho, not sure what country you're in but if what is happening to Palestinians was happening in your country what would you do? For many Americans we feel our state or government is responsible (the financial backing to Israel both militarily and economically) so staying silent on the subject is somewhat dubious.
well I would actually argue, and did so often here and elsewhere, that those Israeli who dont actively resist the current policies of the Israeli state are in fact to a certain extent complicit in those policies and could and should be confronted over their complicity.
It's completely counter productive though to also dump full responsibility for its history on them let alone act like the existence of the Israeli state is somehow not an established fact.
If you buy into national-liberation or nation-reformism, strive than for at least remotely possible leftist goals like a one (or two) multi-ethnic, secular democracy(s) or a even a "fair" two state "solution".
Any supposed leftist arguing for the unconditional dissolvement of Israel in favor of the Arab bourgeoisie outside of global revolution just strives for an situation where the tables are at best turned when it comes to racism, war and ethnic cleansing.
The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. What matter where, if I be still the same, And what I should be, all but less than he Whom thunder hath made greater?
Here at least We shall be free
You hear from the left constantly of how Israel is crushing Palestine, some may even use the term "genocide." This is just the overwrought, overly impassioned rhetoric which many of them are specialists at. Of course, many despicable crimes are being committed against the Palestinians by the Israeli state, but it can't really be described as a genocide scenario where the Israelis are systematically emptying apartment blocks, lining the residents up against the wall, shooting them and dumping them in mass graves (what actual ethnic cleansing would look like)
Any real change implies the breakup of the world as one has always known it, the loss of all that gave one an identity, the end of safety. And at such a moment, unable to see and not daring to imagine what the future will now bring forth, one clings to what one knew, or dreamed that one possessed. Yet, it is only when a man is able, without bitterness or self-pity, to surrender a dream he has long possessed that he is set free - he has set himself free - for higher dreams, for greater privileges.”
-James Baldwin
"We change ideas like neckties."
- E.M. Cioran
The topic of Israel often gets brought up from right-wingers here in the USA, too, so that's probably part of the reason. The topic gets brought up constantly. By comparison Kurdistan and/or Kurds never gets brought up (although I have come across right-wing lit that questions why Palestinians get so much attention while "more deserving" ethnic minorities like Basques or Kurds get the shaft).
Are they not Jewish?
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