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How many symbolic (or otherwise) occupations have you participated in and what 'specific political results' did they yield?
"Of Man's first disobedience, and the fruit
Of that forbidden tree..."
- John Milton -
"The place of the worst barbarism is that modern forest that makes use of us, this forest of chimneys and bayonets, machines and weapons, of strange inanimate beasts that feed on human flesh"
- Amadeo Bordiga
Just to demonstrate my sincerity:
I once participated in a 20 day occupation of a public square (three years before "Occupy") that was a) an end in itself, but also b) led to the opening of an emergency youth shelter.
Some of my roomies were involved in a five day (?) occupation of a university administration building that resisted eviction, had food delivered by elaborate pully-system, and totally changed the discourse on campus. There are two examples of successful, if not perfect occupations (the former direct action, the latter symbolic). Neither involved getting beat down. Neither demonstrated radicals weaknesses, but rather their strengths. See the difference?
Last edited by The Garbage Disposal Unit; 2nd March 2013 at 00:05.
The life we have conferred upon these objects confronts us as something hostile and alien.
Formerly Virgin Molotov Cocktail (11/10/2004 - 21/08/2013)
Obviously you haven't heard of civil disobedience before.
"A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)
"A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
Yes I have. Its when you do a sit down or when you are a black person eating at white people's restaurant. The 3rd biggest party of the country taking over the parliament dont think so that it falls on that category. If you go in, you have to do it the bloody way, the army comes out, you either stand your ground and start a civil war, or you take it like it is and go back to exile and torturing, like you were until 1974.Obviously you haven't heard of civil disobedience before.
Thanks, but not yet.
Pardon me, but isn't giving civil definition a race based definition with this sort of rhetoric a bit racist? I could be wrong and if I am please correct me. Nor is this meant as a jab at DC, I just assume he/she would want to correct his post if this is true.
Men vanish from earth leaving behind them the furrows they have ploughed. I see the furrow Lenin left sown with the unshatterable seed of a new life for mankind, and cast deep below the rolling tides of storm and lightning, mighty crops for the ages to reap.
~Helen Keller
To despise the enemy strategically is an elementary requirement for a revolutionary. Without the courage to despise the enemy and without daring to win, it will be simply impossible to make revolution and wage a people’s war, let alone to achieve victory. ~Lin Biao
http://commiforum.forumotion.com/
Just saying.Originally Posted by Andy Dabilis
"I want to say sweet, silly things." - V.I Lenin
The Army being used against unarmed, peaceful civil-disobedients would create a political crisis.Yes I have. Its when you do a sit down or when you are a black person eating at white people's restaurant. The 3rd biggest party of the country taking over the parliament dont think so that it falls on that category. If you go in, you have to do it the bloody way, the army comes out, you either stand your ground and start a civil war, or you take it like it is and go back to exile and torturing, like you were until 1974.
Thanks, but not yet.
Civil disobedience in 1960's the US Two-party Dictatorship-of-Capital is a very different thing than in crisis Greece today.
Today, Syriza and KKE (if they showed across-the-board revolutionary political initiative) could be beating down the governing Conserving Party's poll numbers if they properly engaged in exposing the arrogance of the Greek Bourgeoisie through creating disorder and public scandal over the bourgeois crimes which is austerity. Every little exposing comment like this from the arrogant child-lunch-butchers needs to be agitated against!
"It is necessary for Communists to enter into contradiction with the consciousness of the masses. . . The problem with these Transitional programs and transitional demands, which don't enter into any contradiction with the consciousness of the masses, or try to trick the masses into entering into the class struggle, create soviets - [is that] it winds up as common-or-garden reformism or economism." - Mike Macnair, on the necessity of the Minimum and Maximum communist party Program.
"You're lucky. You have a faith. Even if it's only Karl Marx" - Richard Burton
Nice strawman! Same for the rest of your posts in this thread. I saw the images, there were definately enough people between the KKE and non KKE to occupy that building, but the KKE made a point of blocking anybody else from that area, objectively assuring the parliamentary session could continue. I've talked with other comrades who were there about this too.
For student organizing in california, join this group!
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=1036
http://socialistorganizer.org/
"[I]t’s hard to keep potent historical truths bottled up forever. New data repositories are uncovered. New, less ideological, generations of historians grow up. In the late 1980s and before, Ann Druyan and I would routinely smuggle copies of Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution into the USSR—so our colleagues could know a little about their own political beginnings.”
--Carl Sagan
He will never admit that the KKE was wrong or was "mistaken".
As far as i suspect the KKE knowingly does its part to prevent a unified response from the Greek workers and manages to get away with it by stating that the workers are not ready, not now and not ever.
You are entering the vicinity of an area adjacent to a location. The kind of place where there might be a monster, or some kind of weird mirror...
I hope your comrades had the gunz ready bro!
Btw, your comrades explained to you why they didnt occupied the parliament the day before where there was 5 times more people and no PAME around?
How sweet. An ultrarevolutionary fanboy of reformist SYRIZA. When right wing and left wing opportunism kiss kiss.
Maybe because the desired session wasn't going on and they didn't want to waste their time for something that wouldn't warrant a response? I mean isn't that the point of an occupation, to get a response by shutting down something going on?
For example occupying the dmv would stop the dmv from running, and they would need to negotiate with the occupiers, or rush the building, in order to commence driving tests etc.
There were wayy too many people there for the police to rush that building, which would still of have a body of people outside. There would of been a response from all of europe if they could of stopped that session from going on, but they didn't, and whether you like it or not, the KKE assured the bourgeois that their congress could continue.
I don't know where this menshevik "people aren't ready for a revolution," talk is coming from, I would assume that when hundreds of thousands of people are demonstrating, that is pretty ripe for a revolution.
For student organizing in california, join this group!
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=1036
http://socialistorganizer.org/
"[I]t’s hard to keep potent historical truths bottled up forever. New data repositories are uncovered. New, less ideological, generations of historians grow up. In the late 1980s and before, Ann Druyan and I would routinely smuggle copies of Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution into the USSR—so our colleagues could know a little about their own political beginnings.”
--Carl Sagan
Seriously, Im going to lose my fuckin hair with the stuff I m reading in here.
People were rioting for 4 hours outside of the parliament. 4-freakin-hours. I was there. Back then I was a member of an anarchosyndicalist organisation. We were not even close to thinking that we would even pass the stairs that lead to the parliament, as it is what has happened the rest 45986439823 times there have been massive riots outside of the Parliament. You know why? Because apparently, none of us was ready to die for that at that point. Because thats what happens when people are storming a parliament. Or do you think the bourgeois will stand still with its hands crossed and say "ow well, they occupied it, whatever. Lets drop these politics that are the only way to maintain our survival as Capital and let them be in peace".
The only place on planet earth were people actually thought that this would happen, is revleft.
The day after, not only the people were not as many as the first day, but even more PAME had arranged something 4 hours earlier than anyone else.
Seriously? Where would it come from buddy? Seriously. That half corpse that is being called "revolutionary Left in Europe"? Groups and parties of 0,05%? Have you any idea what are you talkin about?
That may look enormous to you, givin the fact that you probably are used to do demos of 10 people, but trust me, its not even close enough to start a full blown revolution. I dont know if you noticed, but 95% of the people last June voted for staying in EU and Eurozone- let along overthrowing capitalism and go further. 7% of them voted for nazis!
And dont get me started about the level of organisation of the greek working class and the level of rotting PASOK has brought to it for over 30 years.
Does that look like a people ready to do a revolution? Cause to me it looks like a people that still tryes to find a way to make it through the storm without having to give a good fight. Dont be impatient. Petit bourgeois impatience is the biggest sign of opportunism.
I don't know, i'd be stoked if there were that many people demonstrating around here. However riots outside of parliament aren't actually too productive, and you were dodging my entire point with that. I'm not trying to make you mad, just to point out the problems that KKE has with its theory. It seems like it used to be basically menshevik a few months ago (judging by the rhetoric you're bring back), now by refusing to work with SYRIZA and the rest of the working class it's ultra left.
For student organizing in california, join this group!
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=1036
http://socialistorganizer.org/
"[I]t’s hard to keep potent historical truths bottled up forever. New data repositories are uncovered. New, less ideological, generations of historians grow up. In the late 1980s and before, Ann Druyan and I would routinely smuggle copies of Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution into the USSR—so our colleagues could know a little about their own political beginnings.”
--Carl Sagan
If you want to apply critic to KKE's politics, try studying it first. Other the struggle itself, where you can find examples of which on revleft posts of mine, here are some texts that give a clear view on the spirit.
http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2011/2011-02-11-kea
http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2013/20...arthro-marinoy
As far as the menseviks things go, I dont recall the menseviks having any trouble working with the social democrats(what SYRIZA is today). I remember Lenin though fighting against opportunism wherever it came from. I remember him against Kautsky and the 2nd International and I remember him against Roza Luxemburg and other ultra leftists(even though of course he clearly admited them as comrades, on the contrary of the right wing opportunism).
Working with SYRIZA is working with someone that goes to USA think tanks and make them feel secure that this isnt any kind of revolution, even more calling IMF a partner on the struggle against austerity.
KKE has no bussines with that bs.
Are you serious ?How sweet. An ultrarevolutionary fanboy of reformist SYRIZA. When right wing and left wing opportunism kiss kiss.
I am not deceived by SYRIZA i know that tsiparas is pimping out his party to the troika and does everything to gain their confidence as "responsible statesmen".
But the KKE on the other hand strikes me as yet another typical stalinist organization that to me only manages to vent the rhetoric of a revolutionary part.
I really want to be objective here and give the KKE a fair chance but absolutely nothing even from you has managed to even give me a glimmer of hope when it comes to them.
Prove me wrong please because i really truly want to be wrong here.
You are entering the vicinity of an area adjacent to a location. The kind of place where there might be a monster, or some kind of weird mirror...
First of all, JESUS FUCKIN CHRIST with that "stalinist" bullshit!!! Enough! On the one window of Firefox I m been called a "stalinist", on the other a greek stalinist is accusing KKE of "neotrotskyist downhill".
KKE is neither stalinist or trotskyist. KKE is m-l and with its own, PRESENT DAY analyses. It comes from the "stalinist" and then "antistalinist revisionist" tradition and for the last 20 years it is neither, but more and more it becomes more radical by its own feet, leaving all the antirevolutinary rust behind. So, enough with that crap.
Other than that, KKE is doing everything it has to organise the working class and its allies the best possible for the pretty pretty sweet "rise to the skies". And being a serious party that it is, and not a juvenile group of idiots, it knows that to the revolutionary road there are many many steps. You dont just wake up one day and just start a revolution. And it does it way better than anyone around I tell you.
I know that to the microwave generation that seems boring, having to built and work for something that cannot be seen on the near future, but thats what it takes. If you think otherwise, be my guest and prove us wrong. Start a revolution and win it.
If you do not want to be civil towards me why even bother replying ?
You are entering the vicinity of an area adjacent to a location. The kind of place where there might be a monster, or some kind of weird mirror...
Because of the essence of what I write. We are not buddies to talk about girls and football, we talk politics. Focus on the issues adressed.
And btw, I dont know how it came out, but I was more fed up than agressive. I wasnt attacking you. Im just greek. Thats how we rude uneducated sonsof*****es are.
