Obama wants a European social democracyin the us but won't admit it

[BOZG]

In Europe I don't think Obama would be seen as a social democrat at all. Hell there are only a few people in the US I would think could become a social democrat in Europe- maybe Bernie Sanders and Dennis Kuchinich- and the current socdem, not the "old" socdem that is associated with their left-wing members yearning for post-WW II policies.

Actually, you're probably wrong on this front. European Social Democracy is an extremely vocal cheerleader of Obama and I wouldn't at doubt that there are elements which see Obama very much as a SocDem, albeit maybe one on the right. They're probably somewhat embarrassed by his hawkish FA policy but then again, this is a political tendency whose members included Mubarak and Ben Ali until the masses were overthrowing it.



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[Jimmie Higgins]

What's your opinion on this

Probaly a large chunk of Obama's supporters do want this - though they are convinced it is impossible. Obama wants nothing of the sort and even if he did, he could not make that happen - no president could, it would take something drastic like a war or a large movement and a split in the ruling class like in the 1930s for a reform reversal like this to happen. They are still very much persuing increased privitization and more cuts to the welfare state and working class wages and living standards. They still have education and social security to sell off in the US.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Probaly a large chunk of Obama's supporters do want this - though they are convinced it is impossible. Obama wants nothing of the sort and even if he did, he could not make that happen - no president could, it would take something drastic like a war or a large movement and a split in the ruling class like in the 1930s for a reform reversal like this to happen. They are still very much persuing increased privitization and more cuts to the welfare state and working class wages and living standards. They still have education and social security to sell off in the US.

There is not a homogeneous ruling class agenda.

[Rusty Shackleford]

european social democracy that we know today was basically born out of imperialism and benefits from imperialist plunder.

[Jimmie Higgins]

There is not a homogeneous ruling class agenda.

No, there is instability in capitalism and this causes uncertaintly for the ruling class as to the way forward, but in the US at least there isn't exactly a split in the ruling class agenda right now - probably in the first year of the recession, but now they seem fairly on-board with the plan: continue with neoliberalism while pushing austerity and weakening popular methods of resistance (the unions, bourgois rights, etc) because the financial sector can live with that plan and it will lower wages to allow production to become more profitable which industry will like. The Republicans can play the role of stick and then the Democrats can play the role of "soft austerity" but it doesn't seem like there is much evidence of any alternatives coming from the top - a few token neo-Keynsians are there in the wings as loyal opposition, but I think it would take a defeat of the union-busting strategy for the ruling class to begin to really have some heated opposing views of how to manage capital during these economic times.

In Spain and Greece however, there are probably pretty significnt splits in the ruling class and that's why the governments have come close to being paralyized and there is a lot of political polarization. So far the ruling classes have been able - with a lot of difficulty on their part - pass everything they have needed to, but if things get to the point where they can no longer keep doing this and if the movements can actually neutralize (if no push back) these attacks, then there will probably be sections of the ruling class supporting other options on both the left and the right to "solve the crisis".

[Lokomotive293]

Those are just capitalist wars, none of this has anything to do with upper case, Bebel and Leibhnacht, legitimate marxist Social Democracy, which phrase mongering doesn't equate with. Obama is a bourgeois chronic lier, not a social democrat, just like the "social dems" in erope within Labour and the French socialists.

It's what the opportunist SPD developed into - a party that shoots at workers, works together with fascists to suppress the revolution, and today, paradoxically even more than the conservatives, stands for the support of Imperialist wars and social cuts. Of course, long ago, social democracy and socialism were synonymous, but today, social democracy is widely accepted as an equivalent for opportunism.

[Mackenzie_Blanc]

The other tragedy in Obama’s SOTU address was jobs. The proposals raised were rehashed old programs, like his September 2011 ‘jobs’ bill; more subsidies and tax breaks for multinational corporations and manufacturers; a token infrastructure spending proposal with no details; and a pre-school education proposal that was strangely offered as the first step toward a ‘job retraining’ bill.

Ah yes! Forget class struggle and all that commie nonsense, we need corporate subsidies and pre-school programs, that will fix poverty. Oh, and more middle eastern wars!

[Red Commissar]

Actually, you're probably wrong on this front. European Social Democracy is an extremely vocal cheerleader of Obama and I wouldn't at doubt that there are elements which see Obama very much as a SocDem, albeit maybe one on the right. They're probably somewhat embarrassed by his hawkish FA policy but then again, this is a political tendency whose members included Mubarak and Ben Ali until the masses were overthrowing it.

Obama is more warmly received in Europe than Bush was before him, it's not just Social Democrats that view him like this. Most polling in the past election cycle gave him ridiculous numbers which clearly cut beyond electorates who voted strictly social democrat or some parallel party.

I'm speaking strictly in the sense of a Social Democrat that is big on nationalization, regulation, welfare state etc. Obama does not really want to be the "big government" type that conservatives try to paint him as, they just conflate regulations with such things.

Third Way Social Democrats like Tony Blair who've been trying to jettison their older ways would of course be quick to laud Obama like they did with Clinton by stating they had "modernized" their political views and are moving with the times, rather than clinging with antiquated views as they would criticize their opponents as.

[Lucretia]

There is not a homogeneous ruling class agenda.

It can be a useful abstraction to refer to the ruling class "agenda" in the singular. Members of the class certainly don't agree on everything, but they agree on many things.

[MarxArchist]

Obama wants what he advocates which is DLC type right wing capitalism. Neoliberalism. He wants what capitalism needs to keep functioning. He wants expanding profits. If consessions to workers makes that possible he'll try to help facilitate that. If attacks on workers is what makes that possible he'll help to facilitate that.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Obama wants what he advocates which is DLC type right wing capitalism. Neoliberalism. He wants what capitalism needs to keep functioning. He wants expanding profits. If consessions to workers makes that possible he'll try to help facilitate that. If attacks on workers is what makes that possible he'll help to facilitate that.

And since, outside of maybe China, ruling classes don't seem to be offering wage consessions in exchange for labor peace (and it's slowing there from what I understand, and producing resistance), I think we know which way Obama will go all things equal.

[human strike]

Obama is an accelerationist insurrectionary anarchist. He wants full capitalism now, full communism tomorrow.

[billydan225]

What exactly is social democracy?

[Rusty Shackleford]

What exactly is social democracy?

Social democracy today is simply welfare state politics. The scandinavian and lowland social democracies all have monarchs still

sure, labor is treated better but national minorities still face reactionaries like Geert Wilders.

Generally it is left of liberalism but capitalism is preserved and fortified with a shell of a strong 'benevolent' social contract between the people and the state.


not to mention the German Greens have even moved towards supporting military intervention and the SPD is nothing more than the country's 'labour party' or 'democratic party'

[Agathor]

This and this is social democracy.

It's always much easier to smear your opponents as total demons; it frees you from the obligation of arguing with their positions.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Those are just capitalist wars, none of this has anything to do with upper case, Bebel and Leibhnacht, legitimate marxist Social Democracy, which phrase mongering doesn't equate with. Obama is a bourgeois chronic lier, not a social democrat, just like the "social dems" in erope within Labour and the French socialists.

pre and post-war social democracy are two very different movements.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Social democracy today is simply welfare state politics. The scandinavian and lowland social democracies all have monarchs still '

Social-democracy, understood as what you mentioned, is dead, just like pre-WWI social-democracy died. It died after a series of ideological convulsions during the 1970's and early 80's, which affected all European social-democratic movements. It was a reconciliation between capital and the political leadership that the era of concessions was over (the delusions regarding the imagined threat of the Soviet Union no longer loomed in most of their minds), it was biting into their profit margins and had to be reversed. Welfare policies and regulations to increase social peace and limit economic stratification have been gradually phased out and cut since, all to the merry enjoyment of the ruling classes.

It's always much easier to smear your opponents as total demons; it frees you from the obligation of arguing with their positions.

Well, not like anyone missed the announcement that you're a socdem...

[Lokomotive293]

It's always much easier to smear your opponents as total demons; it frees you from the obligation of arguing with their positions.

Those are just the facts.