Society immediately post-revolution?

[Skyhilist]

I often here people on here say things such as "we've gotta work together to fight off the capitalists, we can worry about the details later", or something along those lines. It's a statement which I don't necessarily disagree with, however it has raised a question within me (for people who also agree with left unity during the revolution).

So my question is this: Immediately after the revolution while we're still working out the specific details of how society is going to function, how will it function at that specific time? And for that matter, how and when will we figure out how it's going to function during that decision making stage to iron out any kinks and work out the details (the one immediately following the revolution as the earlier statement would suggest)?

Any thoughts or insights, comrades?

[MarxSchmarx]

I often here people on here say things such as "we've gotta work together to fight off the capitalists, we can worry about the details later", or something along those lines. It's a statement which I don't necessarily disagree with, however it has raised a question within me (for people who also agree with left unity during the revolution).

So my question is this: Immediately after the revolution while we're still working out the specific details of how society is going to function, how will it function at that specific time?

"revolution" isn't like a war between capitalist states where one side wins one day and the other side surrenders and its all over. The last time you had a turnover from feudalism to capitalism, it never quite worked like that. Even when "feudalism" was dramatically overthrown, as happened in say China in 1911, it was not replaced by modern capitalism for decades.

And for that matter, how and when will we figure out how it's going to function during that decision making stage to iron out any kinks and work out the details (the one immediately following the revolution as the earlier statement would suggest)?

Any thoughts or insights, comrades?

Again, I think the examples of history particularly from the last transition are instructive. One thing that will be certain is that capitalism is replaced region by region. It will probably involve experimentation and tinkering at different places and times. As they get better through trial and error, my sense is there will be convergence of solutions. For instance when the local bourgeosie took over the US the bourgeosie in Latin America followed suit and often copied several features, but moved beyond others like limiting the slave trade.

[tuwix]

I often here people on here say things such as "we've gotta work together to fight off the capitalists, we can worry about the details later", or something along those lines. It's a statement which I don't necessarily disagree with, however it has raised a question within me (for people who also agree with left unity during the revolution).

So my question is this: Immediately after the revolution while we're still working out the specific details of how society is going to function, how will it function at that specific time? And for that matter, how and when will we figure out how it's going to function during that decision making stage to iron out any kinks and work out the details (the one immediately following the revolution as the earlier statement would suggest)?

Any thoughts or insights, comrades?

If you assume there must be any authority like the party which always knows everything better, it is really the issue, but I suspect that the result of such revolution will be another state capitalism.

But if you agree that now the people by majority in direct votes will decide how to solve any problem that they encounter, there is no need to worry about any details.

[ArrowLance]

One of the quickest ways to get an idea of what -could- happen immediately post revolution would be to look at any of the revolutions that have taken place. The Soviet Union is of course one of those, as well as China, Vietnam, Cuba. In the case of the Soviet Union we see the people organized into committees, unions, soviets. These organs would communicate with more central governmental agencies on what their abilities, needs, and desires were.

Whether or not a particular Revolution will be organized as such is questionable, but on the topic of effects we can say a few things are likely. Nationalization of many industries, particularly housing, transportation, agriculture, and communications. Some of these will likely be immediately seized by the state, while others might work in the form of cooperatives or partnerships with the state.

I think it is unlikely all forms of industry will be immediately nationalized, many small businesses will probably be able to perform almost the same as they did pre-revolution.

[Questionable]

The dictatorship of the proletariat as theorized by Marx, Engels, and Lenin provides an excellent basic outline, although it would obviously have to be adjusted with each region's material circumstances.

Have you read "Critique of the Gotha Programme" by Marx or "State and Revolution" by Lenin? These works go a long way in answering your questions about a society immediately post-revolution.

[TheEmancipator]

"Anybody who makes plans for after the Revolution is a reactionary", as Bakunin put it. So to start speculating on what the next society will look like is a pointless exercise. Our entire way of thinking is dominated by the current cultural hegemony in place. We are incapable of predicting the unpredictability of a revolution and its consequences.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I often here people on here say things such as "we've gotta work together to fight off the capitalists, we can worry about the details later", or something along those lines. It's a statement which I don't necessarily disagree with, however it has raised a question within me (for people who also agree with left unity during the revolution).

So my question is this: Immediately after the revolution while we're still working out the specific details of how society is going to function, how will it function at that specific time? And for that matter, how and when will we figure out how it's going to function during that decision making stage to iron out any kinks and work out the details (the one immediately following the revolution as the earlier statement would suggest)?

Any thoughts or insights, comrades?

Well I think the short answer is that we "shouldn't worry about the details now" not because of more immediate concerns really, but because a mass and popular upheval out of a desire for self-emancipation can't be dictated to from the past.

It will be necissary as worker's power really is on the table for people to begin to work some things out, but much of what people do and prioritize will depend on the conditions of the revolution and living history (probably our future) of other struggles. In some places more centralized efforts to stop stronger resitance may be necissary (i.e. worker militias of some kind) whereas in other places maybe the bourgoise are already weak and isolated and so no militia is needed, maybe just some mutual vigilance among workers to prevent random fascist attacks or sabotage. In some places little infrastructure will be needed immediately, we can just reorganize existing supplies and hospitals and housing to meet our needs better; in other places, the inequalities of capitalism may be so severe that massive investment and help from other revolutionary areas will be needed.

But this question also shouldn't be waved away. I think when many people ask this question - especially sympathetic non-radicals - they are asking us for some sort of guarentee that there wouldn't be a Russia 2.0 or something. So it's a serious question and as more people radicalize it will probably also be a major concen until some other worker's revolution (or at least major revolutionary movement) breaks through and there are counter-examples that show how people can run things themselves. Of course there are no guarentees - revolutions may fail and bring about disaster, might be betrayed and then smashed, etc. I think what we can try and explain to people though is that revolution in the sense we mean it isn't a quesation of blueprints and how are laws run and policies organized but of "who" runs society and how they organize themselves.

[sanpal]

I often here people on here say things such as "we've gotta work together to fight off the capitalists, we can worry about the details later", or something along those lines. It's a statement which I don't necessarily disagree with, however it has raised a question within me (for people who also agree with left unity during the revolution).

So my question is this: Immediately after the revolution while we're still working out the specific details of how society is going to function, how will it function at that specific time? And for that matter, how and when will we figure out how it's going to function during that decision making stage to iron out any kinks and work out the details (the one immediately following the revolution as the earlier statement would suggest)?

Any thoughts or insights, comrades?

It is correct question. I'd answer so: many of the left understand "the Revolution" as "... to fight off the capitalists, we can worry about details later". But the most they are speaking about is the seizure of political power. And then without economic model of future society they inevitably will get failure because economic laws and nature of money higher and stronger of the human's wish, or human's will.

In marxism "the Revolution" means the revolutionary change of one Mode of Production by the another Mode of Production i.e. the capitalist MoP by the communist MoP. Why only the revolutionary but not evolutionary change? Because it is not possible any evolutionary transformation of the capitalist MoP (market monetary system) into the communist MoP (moneyless plan economy). On the example of such model of society invented by 'communist' Duhring it was shown by Marx and Engels ("Anty-Duhring") that any attempt to create such kind of society (communist relation developing on the money/commodity base) will lead to its collapse and restoration of capitalist society. Practically it was proved by collapse of the former USSR (the stalinism).

[Fourth Internationalist]

So my question is this: Immediately after the revolution while we're still working out the specific details of how society is going to function, how will it function at that specific time?

It will be exactly as it was before the revolution - capitalism.

And for that matter, how and when will we figure out how it's going to function during that decision making stage to iron out any kinks and work out the details (the one immediately following the revolution as the earlier statement would suggest)?

We won't decide because we can't. The new state will go towards communism from capitalism. The new state will gradually attack private property, etc. through laws and stuff until their is none left.

[Narodnik]

I think we should in the initial state retain market for products, a workers' party gaining state power and changing the constitution and laws and putting all land in the hands of the ones who work it and factories and firms in the hands of the people who work in them, as the first step, and leaving the market for products during the initial stage.

So, first thing is making such a basic socialist economy- with the capitalist-proletarian distinction disappearing, and changes to the constution and laws including also proclaiming as official law the public rejection of totalitarianism and oppression and discrimination based on nation, race, gender, sexual orientation, age, disability, belief, opinion, etc.

Presumably, this should happen first in one of the most developed and powerfull counties, one of the G8, shortly followed by the rest of the G8, then followed with the rest of the First world, and after that the Secong and Third world, that fast spread and the order of the spreading being neccessary so that the Revolution, while still local, wouldn't be destroyed by the capitalist states.

With the start of the revolution succeeding, the next step should be turning the states into direct-democratic decentralized ones with 1) it's bureaucracy shifting in nature by decentralization and 2) reducing radically the size of the state by replacing army with a voluntary horizontral people's millitia; with capitalists and thus poverty dissappearing crime will plummet, so the police force will be reduced too; and toghether with the mentioned decentralization, debureaucratization will be done.

Two important steps remain to complete the Revolution, realizing it's goal:

First step is people organizing municipal federation of their workplace councils to cooperate instead of compete, and organizing municipal consumer councils that would include all people living in the municipality. The municipal federation of workers' council would work toghether with municipal consumer councils, making a framework of the future commune, a sort of economical "pre-commune".

The final step would be doing a few things that would complete the Revolution: - the already decentralized state would form workers' councils in the workplaces of it's existing public services like police, fire-department, health-care, education, post-office, electricity, water supply, infrastructure, and similar, and those councils would join their local municipal federations of workers' councils; and the political and administrational functions of the state would be transfered on the municipal consumer councils, them becoming just a "municipal council".

That would make the municipal federation of workers' council joint with the municipal council a true commune, doing away with states and replacing them with a federations of communes.

Making communes would open the way for the disappearance of remuneration, with maybe of transitional period of use of labour vauchers for the able, which would probably still be accustomed to remuneration.

That would complete the Revolution, making a trully free, just, efficient society where all people can live with dignity in well-being, in a society most conductive for them to freely develop all their human potential.

That's just IMO how stuff would be good to work out.

[ind_com]

I often here people on here say things such as "we've gotta work together to fight off the capitalists, we can worry about the details later", or something along those lines. It's a statement which I don't necessarily disagree with, however it has raised a question within me (for people who also agree with left unity during the revolution).

So my question is this: Immediately after the revolution while we're still working out the specific details of how society is going to function, how will it function at that specific time? And for that matter, how and when will we figure out how it's going to function during that decision making stage to iron out any kinks and work out the details (the one immediately following the revolution as the earlier statement would suggest)?

Any thoughts or insights, comrades?

At the point when we take power nationwide, we will already have a functioning government, army and economy which have been defending territories seized earlier. So the way of functioning of these territories can be developed more and used as a future action plan. Here is an example:

http://www.signalfire.org/?p=21327

[Winkers Fons]

"Anybody who makes plans for after the Revolution is a reactionary", as Bakunin put it. So to start speculating on what the next society will look like is a pointless exercise. Our entire way of thinking is dominated by the current cultural hegemony in place. We are incapable of predicting the unpredictability of a revolution and its consequences.

We do you say that? Isn't the whole point of the socialist movement to create a society that is better than the one we have now? How could we do that without thinking about what happens after the revolution?

[ckaihatsu]

[T]hen without economic model of future society they inevitably will get failure because economic laws and nature of money higher and stronger of the human's wish, or human's will.

One point that I think is not mentioned often enough is that *existing* material conditions -- meaning overproduction and an existing *abundance* of material (idle machinery, unsold goods, and unemployed workers) -- are fundamentally what drive revolutions.

Sure, major (or minor) *political* incidents may set off revolts and rebellions, but that's mostly a "formalization" resulting from endless shitty and ridiculous social conditions.

We shouldn't get *defensive* and be pulled into explaining how our politics *won't* just make the world end up at another Stalinism -- we should instead be pointing out that conditions have been / are *overripe* for revolution and a labor-based organization of society.

[sanpal]

I'd like to add: why a realistic (workable, not utopian) economic mechanism has to be formulated before the revolution (political coup) would has happened? It is needed for modern working class to have confidence that the future reorganizations of society won't make their lives worse. And how revolutionaries can make "educate, agitate, organize" influence on the working class, especially with not clear perspective in their theories? At least workers could consider such leftists as not serious guies.

[Raúl Duke]

I often here people on here say things such as "we've gotta work together to fight off the capitalists, we can worry about the details later", or something along those lines. It's a statement which I don't necessarily disagree with, however it has raised a question within me (for people who also agree with left unity during the revolution).

So my question is this: Immediately after the revolution while we're still working out the specific details of how society is going to function, how will it function at that specific time? And for that matter, how and when will we figure out how it's going to function during that decision making stage to iron out any kinks and work out the details (the one immediately following the revolution as the earlier statement would suggest)?

Any thoughts or insights, comrades?

I assume as a given there will be, pardon the use of terminology, "organs of working class power" where members of the working class may be able to debate ideas on how to run things. Initially this may be at a local level, like assume that workers took over their workplace they may speak about the details regarding the managing of their own local workplace (or whether to at). Overtime, and perhaps it won't take long, certain topics will reach a level of a wider debate. Here I believe is where the ideological radicals (like, you know, the communists and the anarchist and so on) have a role in bringing up these new principles of ideas and new ideas/details within their ideologies to be considered and to point towards the realization of a new society.

Personally, I suspect it is during the revolutionary period where the ideological radical left becomes 'popularized.' In terms of ideology, leftist ideology will probably not be popular per se among the working class in a particular light, although perspectives towards it will definitely change towards the positive in the running up the the revolutionary moment. By which I mean I sincerely doubt we will be seeing a drove of people signing up to be "full-time/due-paying" cadres, activists, members, etc of these organizations pre-revolution; although we may see people sympathize with radical views in some level.

I guess in the meantime there will still be the continuation of a few things perhaps, like money payment and so on but depending on how things progress they will probably be eliminated/replaced one by one in a relatively brisk pace via decisions-making. Certain things may be eliminated immediately, as the conditions that facilitate its existence has dissipated and/or the means to quickly replace it are available to be implemented. It may also differ from place to place, case to case.

With the ruling class dispersed, the state more or less broken, means of production seized from this vacuum I would see a decentralized, horizontal kind of organization arise organically, people organizing to deal with the issues of living in a society.

There's also the issue of defence...etc etc.

Of course, all of this may be false. As mentioned earlier, this is a pointless exercise due to all the "what-if" factors and so on. At best, I could guide you to take a look at previous ground-shaking revolutions like the French, Russian, even the German unrest near the end of WWI to see some historical examples that may help one better understand how revolutions arise in the first place.

[TheEmancipator]

We do you say that? Isn't the whole point of the socialist movement to create a society that is better than the one we have now? How could we do that without thinking about what happens after the revolution?

I am not condemning people who think of after the revolution. But to start predicting and planning what happens after it is ignoring historical consequences that could arise.

As these forums prove, there is multiple ways of achieving the ideal society that one wants. However, these ideas will no doubt clash, and this is a good thing, since for me all ideas cannot be simply characterized as good or bad ideas. So to start dictating what is wrong and what is right is the action of a tyrant.

If you are a revolutionary in wish of radical reform, then start campaigning for such a revolution, for your ideal society, but don't expect things to go only your way. I see us revolutionaries forming a loose alliance as we all (sort of) belong to the same class or predicament that we are disgruntled with. Once the revolution is over new conflicts will emerge.

[Lacrimi de Chiciură]

Social revolution is likely to be a protracted process, not an abrupt transition. Dramatic and symbolic events which occur during the course of revolution evoke immediacy, but they should not be confused for revolution itself. Working out the details of communistic social organization will be almost a never ending process and we will have to keep on adapting to changing conditions even post-capitalism. I don't think it is useful to envision a "decision making stage" where we set the principles communist social organization in stone because communism will be dynamic, not static. Permanent revolution is needed to continue re-envisioning how society is going to function. Cubans still speak of their revolution as a living thing. The first thing to do immediately post-revolution will be to find a way to legitimately institutionalize it, so that it doesn't die.

[ckaihatsu]

Social revolution is likely to be a protracted process, not an abrupt transition. Dramatic and symbolic events which occur during the course of revolution evoke immediacy, but they should not be confused for revolution itself. Working out the details of communistic social organization will be almost a never ending process and we will have to keep on adapting to changing conditions even post-capitalism. I don't think it is useful to envision a "decision making stage" where we set the principles communist social organization in stone because communism will be dynamic, not static. Permanent revolution is needed to continue re-envisioning how society is going to function. Cubans still speak of their revolution as a living thing. The first thing to do immediately post-revolution will be to find a way to legitimately institutionalize it, so that it doesn't die.

In the spirit of inclusiveness we might define the *ongoing* revolution as 'everyone being explicitly political in a leftward direction, in whatever social context they happen to be in'. This is more of an "everyday" definition, instead of the more-decisive, high-level-consciousness overthrowing of the ruling class to end capitalism forever.

I would argue for the latter, of course, and for everyone's activity to be *far more* leftward and higher-reaching. But we can also dispense with garden-variety anxieties by recalling that revolution is nothing more than mass participation in political affairs, in a consistent way -- presently people are *dissuaded* in all kinds of ways from being proactive agents in the course of history, including their own, so anything that people do to further their agency and involvement in their own interests is what the revolution is all about, now, *and* as it would be then.


[1] History, Macro-Micro -- Precision




[22] History, Macro-Micro




[3] Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals