Is the SWP the largest of the IST groups and do they have a big role (organization wise) in the IST?
I think it is necessary to know that before being able to judge what effects it will have.
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Ist
What, if any, broader implications does the recent happenings with the SWP, have for the IST?
Is the SWP the largest of the IST groups and do they have a big role (organization wise) in the IST?
I think it is necessary to know that before being able to judge what effects it will have.
Is this resistance or a costume party?
Either way I think black with bandanas is a boring theme.
fka Creep
I am fairly certain that the SWP was indeed the largest IST presence among the 27 countries that they can be found in. As to the organization role of the SWP, I think its impossible to know; from wikipedia:
The reason I am asking is cause I'm planning on joining a party. While I have theoretical differences with nearly every party in existence, the only possible way to help create a revolutionary Marxist party, would be to fight for one from the inside. I'm considering the IST and the CWI's branches in my country, but figured this would be something important to consider.
I would go for the CWI, the IST are a cheap fuck...
The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. What matter where, if I be still the same, And what I should be, all but less than he Whom thunder hath made greater?
Here at least We shall be free
Any elaboration? I've been leaning to the IST, mainly due to the fact that they seem to have a larger presence in my country, but this won't be the deciding factor for me. To begin with I was thinking CWI.
I would be almost certain that it's the biggest group and that it is the heart of the IST. What impact the scandal will have on the IST as a whole is hard to say?
They have lost their section in Serbia while members in other sections have openly criticised the British CC whereas the Canadian section has chosen to not have a position. I honestly think that the show will go on as the IST is a very lose International. It is far closer to being a paper international than to an International along the lines of the Second or Third Internationals.
It tends to be more of a solidarity group made up of parties with similar programmes rather than a world party with sections in different countries if you get what I mean. And I have always got the impression that there is a culture, pushed from the leadership, to see other sections as sister parties but entirely independent of each other - i.e. It's not your place to comment on or criticise what another section does.
Quite a lot of the pro-CC comments that I've read over the past few weeks certainly confirm my suspicion and the decision of some sections to not have a position on the scandal etc. is also indicative of this.
There were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror... --- Mark Twain
This is the impression I had been getting through my research as well. The CWI seems to have a much better, centralized, organizational structure; my only worry is the issue this could have for internal democracy. As for the IST, it seems thataffiliations seem to operate almost as affinity groups, as opposed to an actual international. The fact that they chose not denounce what has been taking place in the SWP, is pretty damming. I'm not sure if I can be involved with a group which sits in silence while that type of behavior is taking place within the organization.
Pro's: easy to get into, experienced
cons: high turnover, insincere, no principles, will leave you with a massive hang-over
Hence "cheap fuck"
The mind is its own place, and in itself Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven. What matter where, if I be still the same, And what I should be, all but less than he Whom thunder hath made greater?
Here at least We shall be free
Affinity groups is the perfect phrase for the IST.
As for democracy in the CWI, as far as I'm concerned, it is one of those cases where centralisation allows for far superior democracy because there are very clear and open channels for democracy. The International Executive Committee, made up of delegates from each section, meets one a year while regional ECs meet in between. There are often visits made by members of the International to the different sections and each others conferences. During election campaigns, we encourage each other to send people - for assistance but also as a way of building comradeship, sharing experiences. There is an annual summer school which provides "ordinary" members can meet and discuss and take part in the debates regardless of what section it applies.
There were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror... --- Mark Twain
The IST isn't really an international organization, as noted above. To the extent that there is any "organization," it is highly bureaucratized (under the 'leadership' of the SWP), much like the SWP itself is bureaucratized, as evidenced by the goings-on of the past two months. It's odd, though, that you are choosing between these two groups as, from what I can tell, they are very very different programatically. IST groups really don't have a program at all, at least not a formally written one, but rather engage in a kind of "movementism" where they careen from movement to movement, depending on whichever one is heating up at the present moment, in hopes of culling participants into their own ranks. If you don't mind your head spinning from all the abrupt strategic reversals, you might want to consider trying them out.
The CWI is much more conventionally Trotskyist, and as part of this still maintains the unconscionable "deformed workers state" line, though I think their variation on it is idiosyncratic. Their tradition also indicates a highly questionable approach to entryism (deep entryism in times of low struggle), a traditional that was only recently abandoned by the CWI on the basis that, e.g., the British labour party is no longer a labor party (which, IMO, is quite wrong) -- it continues to be a petty bourgeois labor party the same as it always has been, even if it has moved farther to the right to reveal its true colors.
I guess it all really depends on what views and practices you consider most important in a party.
Last edited by Lucretia; 2nd February 2013 at 20:36.
The reason I am choosing between the two, is due to the fact that they seem to be the only parties in my country with any presence. There is a Maoist party with a little bit of support and some M-L parties, but quite obviously none of them interest me.
The entryism has since been abandoned in the CWI (from what I read) which is definitely a plus for them, since that tactic is a dead end as far as I'm concerned. I also don't support the DWS theory, as it is generally known, so that may be a bit of an issue, however I know that Q is a member of the CWI and mine and his politics are relatively similar. I'm not all too concerned with that however, as I stated above, the whole purpose of this for me is to democratically fight within an organization for my convictions.
The fact that the IST is highly bureaucratizated under the SWP makes me no longer interested in them. That party is a sinking ship and should be abandoned.
That's fine about entering the organization to fight for your views. Just keep in mind that it is a Leninist party, and that you'll be expected to toe the line publicly on such things as DWS theory if you don't manage to get a majority to your side (which would be highly unlikely, since most people who reject DWS would probably choose another organization).
Problem with both IST and CWI is that they have the ideological purity of a mongrel dog.
I mean seriously, I know people have a disdain for theoretical purity and so on, but it is important to at least have some knowledge. It's well known that the SWP membership are largely (but not totally, of course!) clueless about Trotskyist theory, and my dealings with the SPEW (CWI in England and Wales) lead me to conclude similarly about them.
I don't understand the purpose of either party, tbh. They seem to operate in a total vacuum and seem to exist only because nobody will take the decision to disband them.
It would of course be much better to maintain absolute ideological purity, refuse to entertain anyone until they have read the collected works of Lenin in their original and join the ranks of the numerous irrelevant sects. Yes, that's a good idea.
There were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror... --- Mark Twain
I wasn't talking about absolute ideological purity, but like, i've known comrades in the IST and CWI who don't know what permanent revolution is, or don't understand what a market is.
It's not their fault, it's the fault of the organisation and points to a huge failure of the latter.
Well if this is something that I notice in my section, it is an issue that I can raise and hopefully try to help correct among the comrades in my area. I'm not that well read when it comes to theory, but despite having lots more learning to do, I do have a decent grasp.
The American ISO seems to have done better since leaving the IST.
Given how easy it is to communicate internationally these days, I am less convinced of the need for micro-Internationals to tell people what to think.
I could agree with this sentiment during a non-revolutionary period; however during any revolutionary upsurge, I feel the need for tight co-ordination and centralization would increase.
This is a very admirable attitude to have.Originally Posted by 9mm
If you do contact the CWI make sure the comrade you talk to about membership explains your rights and responsibilities as a member and ask about the democratic procedure within the party.
"But like Trotskyites working with fascists in the USSR to plant no warning bombs to rip out the lungs of Soviet children from their tiny rib cages you will probably choose to turn a blind eye." - RedSunRising
RIP tech,you will be missed
Marxist Book Resource
Thanks for the tips. I have applied to join over their website, but a CWI member on the board has let me know that it would probably be best to try and contact my countries branch directly, so at the moment I'm trying to locate a # or email address to speed the whole process up.
