Eugenics in Israel? Ethiopian Israeli women forcibly given birth control shots

[feeLtheLove]

Is the Israeli government actually getting away with this?

[Luís Henrique]

What facts? Are you arguing this is an urban myth, or are you just dissatisfied with the genocide label? All l'Enfermé posted was that according to the 1948 Genocide Convention "Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group" constitutes genocide, and this fits the situation.

Obviously the problem here is with the word "imposing".

Look nobody is saying they were all forced to take the injections, but they were definitely pressured to do it and not informed fully of the consequences.

And of course, if they were not forced, it wasn't imposed.

Now in the article posted by goalkeeper, Nathalie Rothschild herself writes that:

The official only acknowledged that Depo-Provera has been administered within that community
...
some Israeli officials gave Ethiopians the impression that a refusal to take birth control would disqualify them from moving to Israel, as the documentary claimed.

So, what she says is that some Israeli officials sought to give Ethiopians such impression. But, of course, some Israeli officials are not the same as the Israeli State.

Going back to the former article, in some cases women might actually have been forced to take the injections:

According to one of the women interviewed, “They told us they are inoculations. They told us people who frequently give birth suffer. We took it every three months. We said we didn't want to." According to the report, officials threatened to deny some applicants entry into Israel if they refused to accept the injection.

And would such threats be enforceable within Israeli law and official policy?

This is an obvious case of racism and discrimination, but the agent of such crime is not the State of Israel; instead, it is misaplication of policy by individual officers (or perhaps by some shadowy organisation of officers, a conspiracy to committ a crime).

If you want a more "mainstream" view, the article states that rights organizations within Israel were calling for the practice to be stopped:

And rightly so. And the practice was, what? continued, or interrupted?

Even if you don't want to characterize this as genocide, the fact remains that it was a despicable practice.

Yes, and despicable practice =/= genocide - not at least in my dictionary.

The attempt to compare this with Hitler's mass extermination of Jews (and others) is ridiculous.

Rothschild (whose agenda should be under scrutiny. Browsing her writings she seems to be on the right politically (or maybe she's a radical leftist ). She is apparently against the Gaza flotilla, the Palestinian UN bid for statehood and the Occupy movement) again writes that:

I have no doubt she is a right winger.

Indeed this a big part of the problem; when the left lies or unintentionally spreads bullshit, the right can appear as valiant upholders of truth.

Rothschild then goes on about Ethiopians preferring injectable contraceptives because of their culture or some bullshit like that. Yeah, but if they love Depo-Provera so much why would they complain about it then?

Well?

Are you saying they should be denied contraceptives, or only allowed access to those they would be unable to use?

Considering the racism towards Africans in Israel, it doesn't really surprise me that the Ethiopians were pressured to take the birth control.

Ah, yes; Israel is a very racist State, no doubt. But, regarding Ethiopian Jews, such racism is way more apparent in the way they deliberately sought to bring African Jews into Israel, while at the same time denying immigration to African goyim. Which apparently is what they do to people of all colours - if they are Jewish, they can everything; if not, they should leave Israel, or, better even, not go there for starters.

Luís Henrique

[Rurkel]

So, what she says is that some Israeli officials sought to give Ethiopians such impression. But, of course, some Israeli officials are not the same as the Israeli State.

Just because it was done on a semi-official, not-perfectly-organized level, and the coercion was "take birth control, or we won't admit you", not "muscled men suddenly appear, grab the Ethiopian women, and proceed to forcefully administer the drug" doesn't mean that Israel isn't responsible here.

Mind you, I do think that the 1948 Genocide Convention is rubbish. It, for one, makes everyone guilty of two racialized murders a genocidaire.

[Goblin]

About Nathalie Rothchilds politics. Considering shes a scandinavian (swedish) jew, shes most likely pretty conservative. The scandinavian jewish community is infamous for their right wing politics. Most scandinavian synagogues end their morning shabbat prayers by kissing the royal families asses. They also have some extreme views regarding Palestine.

As for the sterilization story itself, its true. It has been going on for 3 years now. And looking at all the other crazy shit Israel has been doing, its not that surprising.

[Luís Henrique]

Just because it was done on a semi-official, not-perfectly-organized level, and the coercion was "take birth control, or we won't admit you", not "muscled men suddenly appear, grab the Ethiopian women, and proceed to forcefully administer the drug" doesn't mean that Israel isn't responsible here.

Oh yes, they are. After all, it is their officers doing the shit. They apparently are taking up such responsibility, changing policy at least. I would expect an investigation on the transgressing officers too - but cover-ups of this kind of attitude are commonplace for most States, not only Israel.

Mind you, I do think that the 1948 Genocide Convention is rubbish. It, for one, makes everyone guilty of two racialized murders a genocidaire.

It doesn't. Here is what it says:

[...] genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious groups [...]

So a racist who kills two or three people may be guilty of genocide, if those killings are part of a plan to eradicate the "race" he is prejudiced against. But that, I think, isn't the case of most racist murderers.

Luís Henrique

[Rurkel]

Yeah, but there's a "in whole or in part" detail. Can three people murdered for their ethnicity be labelled "a part of an ethnic group"?

After all, it is their officers doing the shit.

I'm confused here - I'm saying that Israel is responsible, you seem to disagree, but then state that Israel has taken up the responsibility?

[Nakidana]

And of course, if they were not forced, it wasn't imposed.

But apparently some of them might actually have been forced:

We took it every three months. We said we didn't want to.

And some of them were told that entry to Israel would be denied if they didn't take the injection. IMO it's not much of a choice, take the injection or we'll send you back.

So, what she says is that some Israeli officials sought to give Ethiopians such impression. But, of course, some Israeli officials are not the same as the Israeli State.

But who told them to give that impression? Why are they even in possession of Depo-Provera? Did they simply decide on their own, as a consequence of the general racism in Israel, to carry around vials of Depo-Provera in their pockets just in case they might stumble upon black people in their day to day lives?

And would such threats be enforceable within Israeli law and official policy?

This is an obvious case of racism and discrimination, but the agent of such crime is not the State of Israel; instead, it is misaplication of policy by individual officers (or perhaps by some shadowy organisation of officers, a conspiracy to committ a crime).

Shadowy conspiracy of officials? Come on. Obviously they acted on policy in which case some arm of the state is to blame.

And rightly so. And the practice was, what? continued, or interrupted?

My point was that the fact that the rights organization called for an immediate stop to the practice shows that it is indeed a legitimate issue, and not just an urban legend spun out of control.

Of course it was interrupted, but only when the practice was brought to the attention of the public. This does not mean the state was not aware of the practice beforehand.

Yes, and despicable practice =/= genocide - not at least in my dictionary.

The attempt to compare this with Hitler's mass extermination of Jews (and others) is ridiculous.

Sure it might not be as bad as the holocaust, but that doesn't detract from how outrageous and despicable the practice is. It seems to me that this was a policy deliberately created in order to limit the birth rate in the Ethiopian community in Israel. From the article:

Observers note that the ministry's response side-stepped the allegation raised that the authorities were targeting Ethiopian women. The response did not say whether there were explicit policy guidelines underlying prescription of the drug or for how long government-funded health facilities have administered the drug to African women of Ethiopian origin. The response also gave no hint about how many women of Ethiopian origin were involved. The allegation that the Israeli authorities were targeting Ethiopian women for prescription of the drug Depo-Provera was first reported five years ago. The National reports that in 2009, Eyal supervised a study that showed that 57 percent of Depo-Provera users in Israel were Ethiopian, although their community was less than 2 per cent of the population.

There have been reports of a shocking decline in the birth-rate in the Ethiopian community in Israel. I see no reason to downplay this.

I have no doubt she is a right winger.

Indeed this a big part of the problem; when the left lies or unintentionally spreads bullshit, the right can appear as valiant upholders of truth.

Of course, my point is just that we should acknowledge she is a right winger trying to downplay the issue, ignore her agenda and remember to look at the facts.

Well?

Are you saying they should be denied contraceptives, or only allowed access to those they would be unable to use?

No, are you actually trying to defend the practice?

I'm saying they should be offered the same contraceptives as every other Israeli citizen, not have Depo-Provera shoved down their throats. There are side effects to Depo-Provera and they should be informed of these side effects and offered alternatives.

It is entirely likely they were pressured to take Depo-Provera instead of other contraceptives because the officials knew it would last longer and they would be sure of compliance (in contrast to the pill).

Ah, yes; Israel is a very racist State, no doubt. But, regarding Ethiopian Jews, such racism is way more apparent in the way they deliberately sought to bring African Jews into Israel, while at the same time denying immigration to African goyim. Which apparently is what they do to people of all colours - if they are Jewish, they can everything; if not, they should leave Israel, or, better even, not go there for starters.

I don't think you can dismiss racism in Israel towards Ethiopian Jews, just because they're Jews. While they probably consider African goyim worth even less, this practice is evidence that they do in fact discriminate against black people even if they're Jews.

Maybe the operations you mentioned were done for PR reasons. "Let's save some black Jews, will look good on Israel's resumé. Just don't bring too many of them here. Oh, and also, black people multiply like rabbits, we need to make sure we offer them contraceptives or they might get out of control!"

[goalkeeper]

About Nathalie Rothchilds politics. Considering shes a scandinavian (swedish) jew, shes most likely pretty conservative. The scandinavian jewish community is infamous for their right wing politics. Most scandinavian synagogues end their morning shabbat prayers by kissing the royal families asses. They also have some extreme views regarding Palestine.
g.

WTF is this?

Since when was it ok to use someones ethnicity to say what politics they have?

"well, considering Mohammed Mohammed is Muslim, he's most likely a radical jihadist. The scandinavian Muslim community is infamous for their Islamist politics. They also have some extreme views regarding women"

[Luís Henrique]

Yeah, but there's a "in whole or in part" detail. Can three people murdered for their ethnicity be labelled "a part of an ethnic group"?

The convention makes it depend on intent. If you murder one person of a given ethnic group as part of a plan to exterminate it, then yes, it can be framed as genocide.

I'm confused here - I'm saying that Israel is responsible, you seem to disagree, but then state that Israel has taken up the responsibility?

They are responsible for their officials, yes. They are not necessarily responsible for the particular actions of particular officials, though. If a cop murders someone, the State is responsible in the sence that it has to indemnify the relatives of the victim, punish the cop, take preventive measures so that it doesn't happen again, etc. It doesn't mean that the State is responsible in the sence that it necessarily agrees with the murder, or that the action necessarily reflects State policy.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Since when was it ok to use someones ethnicity to say what politics they have?

Ah, the Jews... when they are not Bolsheviks, they are capitalists. And at times they are both.

Luís Henrique

[The Jay]

@Luis Henrique your claim to contention is bogus. It is true that they are not forced at gunpoint to take the injection, but neither are workers generally forced to work for the bourgeoisie at gunpoint. You can't accept the second as being coerced without the first.

[Luís Henrique]

@Luis Henrique your claim to contention is bogus. It is true that they are not forced at gunpoint to take the injection, but neither are workers generally forced to work for the bourgeoisie at gunpoint. You can't accept the second as being coerced without the first.

But I don't think proletarians are (normally) "coerced" into working for the bourgeoisie. We are exploited, but this is a very different thing.

Luís Henrique

[Ocean Seal]

Wow. I actually find that shocking.

I agree, I'm always willing to believe that Israel is composed of a set of bastards, but even I am having a difficult time believing this one.

[Rurkel]

The convention makes it depend on intent. If you murder one person of a given ethnic group as part of a plan to exterminate it, then yes, it can be framed as genocide.

To exterminate, in whole or in part. According to the convention, there's such a thing as "exterminating in part". So, if three people count as "part of an ethnicity", and I killed them, I certainly did a partial extermination of said ethnicity, and thus, a genocidaire, even if I didn't have the intent to go kill all people of the ethnicity.

Now, you could say that I am engaging in legalistic obstructionism, but my point is that "genocide" is a thing obvious to an onlooker, but hard to legalistically define.

[barbelo]

Amazing how people dance when their strings are pulled.
I guess I should open an online newspaper too.