Thread: Gun rights?

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  1. #41
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    There was just a gigantic clusterfuck of a thread on this in the Politics section, so I'm just going to pop in and say I don't support gun control because:

    A. It ignores the underlying causes of violent behavior in society. Banning guns without resolving these underlying causes will mean violence will manifest in different forms.

    B. If your goal is to reduce the number of deaths per year, gun violence pales in comparison to alcohol, car accidents, and tobacco. All three of which can and do involve "innocent" third parties who did not consent.


    C. A more effective approach to reducing the number of deaths specifically due to gun violence in capitalist society would be to build a social safety net and adopt universal public physical and mental health care. This attacks the root causes (poverty / property crime, drug violence due to poverty, serious mental illness, etc).
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  3. #42
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    The exception Marx made is no longer correct in our current age, capitalism has changed since 1872. It is for that reason that Lenin already noted in 1917 that this was no longer the case:

    “It is interesting to note, in particular, two points in the above-quoted argument of Marx. First, he restricts his conclusion to the Continent. This was understandable in 1871, when Britain was still the model of a purely capitalist country, but without a militarist clique and, to a considerable degree, without a bureaucracy. Marx therefore excluded Britain, where a revolution, even a people's revolution, then seemed possible, and indeed was possible, without the precondition of destroying "ready-made state machinery".

    Today, in 1917, at the time of the first great imperialist war, this restriction made by Marx is no longer valid. Both Britain and America, the biggest and the last representatives — in the whole world — of Anglo-Saxon “liberty”, in the sense that they had no militarist cliques and bureaucracy, have completely sunk into the all-European filthy, bloody morass of bureaucratic-military institutions which subordinate everything to themselves, and suppress everything. Today, in Britain and America, too, "the precondition for every real people's revolution" is the smashing, the destruction of the "ready-made state machinery" (made and brought up to the “European”, general imperialist, perfection in those countries in the years 1914-17).”(V.I. Lenin, State and Revolution)
    Yeah. I've seen that, before. That was Lenin trying to walk it back. However; as Alex Callinicos notes in; The Revolutionary Ideas of Karl Marx; that's total bullshit.

    Throughout the 19th century the British state had a military machine which was used, not only in the 'filthy, bloody morass' of endless colonial wars of conquest, but also to keep Ireland under British rule, and used, especially during the first half of the century, against workers in Britain, itself.

    -The Revolutionary Ideas of Karl Marx, 195-196

    Callinicos goes on to note that Marx meant exactly what he appears to be saying, in the La Liberte speech. He explains Marx's lifelong belief in the potential of universal suffrage, beginning before his Radicalization, in his Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right, and continuing after becoming a Socialist, in works like; The Communist Manifesto, The Class Struggles in France, and Eighteenth Brumaire. For example;

    But universal suffrage is the equivalent of political power for the working class of England, where the proletariat forms the large majority of the population, where, in a long though underground civil war, it has gained a clear consciousness of its position as a class and where even the rural districts know no longer any peasants, but only landlords, industrial capitalists (farmers) and hired labourers. The carrying of universal suffrage in England would, therefore be a far more socialistic measure than anything which has been honoured with that name on the continent. Its inevitable result, here is the political supremacy of the working class. (Marx's emphasis.)

    -Marx, Free Trade and the Chartists
    http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...1852/08/25.htm

    Engels also echoed these sentiments, such as in; The Tactics of Social Democracy.
    Last edited by NGNM85; 6th February 2013 at 02:11.
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  4. #43
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    Yeah. I've seen that, before. That was Lenin trying to walk it back. However; as Alex Callinicos notes in; The Revolutionary Ideas of Karl Marx; that's total bullshit.

    Throughout the 19th century the British state had a military machine which was used, not only in the 'filthy, bloody morass' of endless colonial wars of conquest, but also to keep Ireland under British rule, and used, especially during the first half of the century, against workers in Britain, itself.

    -The Revolutionary Ideas of Karl Marx, 195-196
    Nevertheless, Callinicos's book takes a critical view of Marx's position on universal suffrage, as we should too, i think. Or has universal suffrage brought about socialist change in any of the many countries in which it was implemented after Marx's death?
  5. #44
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    Nevertheless, Callinicos's book takes a critical view of Marx's position on universal suffrage, as we should too, i think.
    It seems that everyone does, which is why I commented on it, earlier. It still surprises me how even fairly conservative Marxists dismiss this, out of hand.

    Or has universal suffrage brought about socialist change in any of the many countries in which it was implemented after Marx's death?
    I think the real issue is class consciousness. If the majority of American workers had a sufficiently high level of class consciousness, I think that universal suffrage absolutely would inevitably result in; 'the political supremacy of the working class.' There's some recognition of this fact among influential policy theorists, people like Reinhold Niebuhr, or Samuel Huntington, etc., although; not exactly in those terms. I don't think the blame for this can be placed on any one thing, I think it's a combination of factors. However; I'm inclined to think that the fact that the United States, absolutely, has the most sophisticated propaganda system, in the world, is a very significant factor.
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  6. #45
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    I think the real issue is class consciousness. If the majority of American workers had a sufficiently high level of class consciousness, I think that universal suffrage absolutely would inevitably result in; 'the political supremacy of the working class.'
    But surely the history of the last century showed quite clearly that the boundaries of parliamentary politics serve to stifle class consciousness and contain working-class militancy?
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  8. #46
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    I wouldn't desire a society were all guns were taken away, only perhaps for the mentally ill but criminals. That said, these mass shootings should at least send a sign that the U.S. is socially unstable with rife and inequality, and turning into a banana republic if not already.
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  9. #47
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    I wouldn't desire a society were all guns were taken away, only perhaps for the mentally ill but criminals. That said, these mass shootings should at least send a sign that the U.S. is socially unstable with rife and inequality, and turning into a banana republic if not already.
    Then my question to you is: why not take away all guns? Wouldn't the world be safer? Or do you just like firing a gun?
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    Then my question to you is: why not take away all guns? Wouldn't the world be safer? Or do you just like firing a gun?
    Make a quick run through this thread: http://www.revleft.com/vb/marxist-po...032/index.html


    It's five pages, but covers this whole topic pretty well. The fact is there isn't actually a gun violence "epidemic" in the US; it's a talking point and a red herring.
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  12. #49
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    Make a quick run through this thread: http://www.revleft.com/vb/marxist-po...032/index.html


    It's five pages, but covers this whole topic pretty well. The fact is there isn't actually a gun violence "epidemic" in the US; it's a talking point and a red herring.
    'Epidemic' is kind of a loaded word. However; gun violence in the US is totally disproportionate, in comparison to other Western countries.
    Last edited by NGNM85; 8th February 2013 at 02:41.
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  14. #50
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    'Epidemic' is kind of a loaded phrase. However; gun violence in the US is totally disproportionate, in comparison to other Western countries.
    Apples to oranges, there is a near-non-existent social safety net in the US, compared to, for example, our Dutch companions. Socioeconomic stratification, etc. It is not to blame on "guns" but on "material circumstances".
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  16. #51
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    I support better regulations than what we have now, primarily closing the gun show loophole because no only does that spread weapons into the inner city but also in the hands of Mexican cartels. I believe in an armed working class but I realize that the unregulated distribution of firearms has serious consequences, primarily for working class minorities.
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  17. #52
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    I support better regulations than what we have now, primarily closing the gun show loophole because no only does that spread weapons into the inner city but also in the hands of Mexican cartels. I believe in an armed working class but I realize that the unregulated distribution of firearms has serious consequences, primarily for working class minorities.
    Re-hashed "white man's burden". Why not rectify what's causing gun violence in the first place?
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  19. #53
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    I support better regulations than what we have now, primarily closing the gun show loophole because no only does that spread weapons into the inner city but also in the hands of Mexican cartels.
    The only reason for not closing the gun show loophole is to make it easier for violent felons, (murderers, rapists, etc.) or the severely mentally ill (schizophrenics, etc.) to buy weapons. That doesn't mean closing the loophole will ensure that some of these individuals won't be able to obtain firearms, however; I just can't fathom any reason why we should be facilitating that.

    I believe in an armed working class but I realize that the unregulated distribution of firearms has serious consequences, primarily for working class minorities.
    That's another good point. Those who claim that Radicals should axiomatically oppose any firearms regulation should consider the social consequences. For instance; the fact that the overwhelming majority of the roughly 9,000, or so Americans killed by firearms last year were workers, or the fact that gun owners are far less likely to use their guns to defend themselves from the bourgeoisie, as they are to terrorize, or injure their spouse. Food for thought.
    Last edited by NGNM85; 8th February 2013 at 05:31.
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  21. #54
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    Just an interesting quote I found the other day that pretty well sums up my views on gun rights I think. Also, if anybody knows where it's from I'd love to know.

    "Disarmament? – But the entire question revolves around who will disarm whom. The only disarmament which can avert or end war is the disarmament of the bourgeoisie by the workers. But to disarm the bourgeoisie, the workers must arm themselves."
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  23. #55
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    Make a quick run through this thread: http://www.revleft.com/vb/marxist-po...032/index.html


    It's five pages, but covers this whole topic pretty well. The fact is there isn't actually a gun violence "epidemic" in the US; it's a talking point and a red herring.
    Apples to oranges, there is a near-non-existent social safety net in the US, compared to, for example, our Dutch companions. Socioeconomic stratification, etc. It is not to blame on "guns" but on "material circumstances".
    Both of your objections are merely from a standpoint that someone will always own guns, or that killings have a purely social cause.

    Guns are made to kill or maime humans or animals. Why would you want such a thing?

    Even if there is no epidemic (which i never mentioned), people are still getting hurt or killed by gun-violence. Even if there is one kill per year, it is one too many.

    So i again must ask you: why not take away all guns? Wouldn't the world be safer? Or do you just like firing a gun?
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    Just an interesting quote I found the other day that pretty well sums up my views on gun rights I think. Also, if anybody knows where it's from I'd love to know.

    -Leon Trotsky
    If we adapt this to the present time, and place, this suggests that revolutionaries should seriously attempt to defeat the United States military, in a one-on-one confrontation. That is suicidal madness.
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  26. #57
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    Re-hashed "white man's burden".
    So if I am concerned about the fact that non-white people are far more likely to murdered by firearms than white people, that means I have patronizing views towards minorities?
    Why not rectify what's causing gun violence in the first place
    Yes, I am in favor of that as well but its obvious that countries that don't put some sensible controls on the distribution of firearms have far higher murder rates.
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  28. #58
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    Lets get some facts up in here: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp
    Now that's out if the way, I want to note that a lot of people are unaware that there is no gun show loophole in many places, for example, where I live. And you know what? I favor a zero gun control policy. I might post up the paper I wrote regarding gun control, so I can give my opinions on it. There are a few points I didn't include in the paper (as it was a school assignment and they don't like revolutionary ideas in those). I want to say that I feel we need to keep the working class as armed as possible. It may not make us win, but it can't hurt. I am in support of trying to get the militaries of the world on our side, as well, so we get the best of both worlds.
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    If we adapt this to the present time, and place, this suggests that revolutionaries should seriously attempt to defeat the United States military, in a one-on-one confrontation. That is suicidal madness.
    Well now I just feel silly. I suppose that is something I overlooked, forgetting society was much different back then. *smacks self* So yea...I think I agree with you, at least in the context of North America.
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    Both of your objections are merely from a standpoint that someone will always own guns, or that killings have a purely social cause.
    Well in the first case, someone will always own guns, even if it is only the bourgeois state.

    While murder doesn't have purely social causes, a good case can be made that the approaches most likely to reduce violence take into account the social dimension.

    Guns are made to kill or maime humans or animals. Why would you want such a thing?
    Guns are made to launch bullets. What those bullets are launched at can be a matter of utility, e.g. hunting.

    Even if there is no epidemic (which i never mentioned), people are still getting hurt or killed by gun-violence. Even if there is one kill per year, it is one too many.
    Are you willing to take the same position on alcohol and motor vehicles? If not, why not?

    So i again must ask you: why not take away all guns? Wouldn't the world be safer? Or do you just like firing a gun?
    I don't think bourgeois states are going to disarm themselves any time soon.

    If we adapt this to the present time, and place, this suggests that revolutionaries should seriously attempt to defeat the United States military, in a one-on-one confrontation. That is suicidal madness.
    Or it could be pointing out how absurd it is that liberals like you focus on the armed worker while all but ignoring the armed bourgeoisie. I wonder which one causes the far greater proportion of misery and death, hmm?
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