Men's Rights Movement

[LeftyBastard]

The emerging Men's Rights Movement has many people from conservative/libertarian views. I wanted to see what people thougth about men's rights from a left-wing view. For example, men deciding they do not want to have children or get married. There are 2.5 million men in prison in this country and men are more likely to commit suicide than women by 6x.
I mean this in a way that is not combatting feminism but is about men moving out of the protector/provider role.

[o well this is ok I guess]

The MRA around here has a reputation of trolling feminist demos.
So, yeah, fuck em, or at least the one here.

[Ostrinski]

Except that there is plenty of room within feminism for men to struggle against the protector/provider paradigm, as feminism is nothing if not the movement toward the end of gender roles. Given that we exist in a globally patriarchal society, I certainly don't see why men are deserving of their own movement in this regard.

[Goblin]

The whole "masculinist" movement is fucking stupid. Feminists fight for gender equality. They want whats best for both genders.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

"Men's rights" is a ridiculous concept in a male-dominated society, like "white rights" in a white-dominated society. It's advocated by reactionaries.

[o well this is ok I guess]

To be fair there's a lot of things that could be better about being a male. But these problems originate from patriarchy, so it'd be wrong to frame them as a "men's rights" issue.

[#FF0000]

A bunch of people complaining on the internet doesn't really constitute a movement, imo.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Well it seems to me (based on the limited knowledge I have on this subject) that the men's right thing is more about lamenting some sort of turn for the worse in society, a turn for the worse for men. Which is not what they should be doing, what they should be doing is thinking about how society's ideas regarding gender and gender roles impedes individuals...that can explain why young men are often murdered, why men get sent to war , why unjust decisions sometimes happen in family court, etc. These issues aren't something that most men get confronted with on a regular basis, though, I don't think.

[Sentinel]

The emerging Men's Rights Movement has many people from conservative/libertarian views. I wanted to see what people thougth about men's rights from a left-wing view.

It completely lacks justification for it's existence no matter if it calls itself left or right. Feminism is a reaction to a real phenomenon, patriarchal oppression - but men are not oppressed by women.

For example, men deciding they do not want to have children or get married.

Because women don't feel pressured to do these things, you mean? Are you joking..?

There are 2.5 million men in prison in this country and men are more likely to commit suicide than women by 6x.

I'm fairly sure they aren't in jail, or commit suicide, due to oppression by women. Are you starting to catch my point?

There is no need for a mens rights movement as long as we live in a patriarchal society.

I agree with the movement. They combat feminism too, which is good as well!

Why is it good?

[Jason]

The emerging Men's Rights Movement has many people from conservative/libertarian views. I wanted to see what people thougth about men's rights from a left-wing view. For example, men deciding they do not want to have children or get married. There are 2.5 million men in prison in this country and men are more likely to commit suicide than women by 6x.
I mean this in a way that is not combatting feminism but is about men moving out of the protector/provider role.

The prison thing is a racial issue, not gender. Ironically, more than likely these "libertarians" might stick up for men, but not other races.

[DancingEmma]

I'm glad to see the Men's Rights Movement is being roundly rejected here. Self-identified Men's Rights Activists (MRAs) are almost without exception (as far as I can tell) huge reactionaries, misogynists, and douchebags. They are just pissed off because they want the right to be complete sexist assholes and still have every woman they meet worship the ground they walk on. Unfortunately for them, though, it's not the 1950s anymore, and this will never happen. MRAs will occasionally quote statistics about men in prison or men who commit suicide to bolster their case. Weirdly enough, though, they are almost exclusively straight, white men who have never been in prison or contemplated suicide themselves. And the sorts of men who ARE disproportionately likely to have dealt with these issues, like men of color or gay men, well, MRAs often don't seem particularly fond of THEM.

The only type of male hardship that MRAs REALLY care about is the imaginary hardships that straight, white MRAs face due to all the big mean feminists telling them to stop being douchebags. Boo-hoo! Women give me dirty looks when I tell sexist jokes! Boo-hoo! I bought this chick a drink at the bar and then she didn't ever have sex with me! Boo-hoo! I beat my wife and then she divorced me, and now I have to pay the ***** child support!

Yup. Poor, poor MRAs.

[#FF0000]

I dunno if they can even be called "MRAs" considering the "A" stands for activists. They don't do anything about any of the issues that they talk about and are apparently unaware of organizations that exist that deal with them, e.g. any prison reform group that tries to deal with the issue of sexual assault in prisons

[DancingEmma]

I dunno if they can even be called "MRAs" considering the "A" stands for activists. They don't do anything about any of the issues that they talk about and are apparently unaware of organizations that exist that deal with them, e.g. any prison reform group that tries to deal with the issue of sexual assault in prisons

Actually, that's a good point. I mean even I, who am a evil stuck-up feminazi **** dyke *****, do way way more for men in prison and suicidal men and men who are sent to die in wars than any MRA ever has.

[LOLseph Stalin]

A men's right movement probably isn't necessary for most things, but there's is a few areas where men do lack rights: child custody being one.

[Quail]

A men's right movement probably isn't necessary for most things, but there's is a few areas where men do lack rights: child custody being one.

Why do you think that is though? Women are still expected to be the primary caregiver and so are more likely to have spent more time with the child. Even if this is not the case, the woman is likely to be favoured due to traditional gender roles. The traditional gender roles which feminists want to abolish.

Edit: @DancingEmma: Use of the word "****" isn't normally allowed on this forum, although I appreciate the context you're using it in.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Why do you think that is though? Women are still expected to be the primary caregiver and so are more likely to have spent more time with the child. Even if this is not the case, the woman is likely to be favoured due to traditional gender roles. The traditional gender roles which feminists want to abolish.

Since feminists are working to abolish gender roles anyway that's another reason a men's rights movement wouldn't be needed. Most of the rights they lack are because of traditional gender roles anyway.

[DancingEmma]

Edit: @DancingEmma: Use of the word "****" isn't normally allowed on this forum, although I appreciate the context you're using it in.

Thanks for the heads up, Quail, and I think it's actually for the best that the word is not allowed here. I suppose I figured it was fair game because just yesterday I was called that word by one of our fine male fellow revolutionaries in the chat room. On reflection, I realize the chat room is not the same thing as the forums. But I think that's why the word was on my mind. Normally, I believe it's so toxic that I don't even try to use it in the reclaimed sense or in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way.

[RedAtheist]

The MRA is not doing anything to help men that hasn't all ready been done by some other movement which is isn't bashing feminism. They whine about men being conscripted into the army, ignoring the fact that 1) Conscription is in no way that fault of feminism and supporters of conscription tend to hate feminism and 2) we already have anti-war movements fighting against conscription and they seem to actually care about the issue. Besides the MRA has rather cowardly reasons for opposing conscription. They think men in a military are 'oppressed' when really they are tools for carrying out oppression against people of other countries. Opposition to conscription should be motivated by people not wanting to be forced to kill others in a war, not by pure self-interest.

There are negative consequences to being part of the dominant group. When Hitler ruled Germany he put a lot of effort in telling white Germans (both men and women) that they needed to be tough and ruthless, instructions which are similar to those given to men in our culture. This no doubt would have damaged their psyches (not to mention the fact that some of them wound up being jailed or executed after WW2), but no one would argue that white Germans were the oppressed race in Nazi Germany.

Expectations and "pressures", even those which are enforced through cruel bullying and state propaganda, are not necessarily oppression. In the case of the expectations placed on men, they are designed to put men on top and make them the powerful group in society. The expectations placed on women (e.g. that they be quiet, gentle, soft, never concerned about their own well being) are designed to keep women in a weaker position in society. Why am I not surprised that a group identifying as 'libertarian' does not understand this and thinks all 'expectations' are equally oppressive?

[LeftyBastard]

[FONT=Verdana]MRAs are imperfect but I don't think radical feminism is any better. Radicals feminists stretched sexism to the point where everyday activities are seen as sexist. They restrict freedom and really have little to do with Marxism or anarchy. Honestly a lot of movements have been destroyed and friends have been turned against one another due to the exploits of radical feminism.[/FONT]

[Quail]

Since feminists are working to abolish gender roles anyway that's another reason a men's rights movement wouldn't be needed. Most of the rights they lack are because of traditional gender roles anyway.

That was my point.

Thanks for the heads up, Quail, and I think it's actually for the best that the word is not allowed here. I suppose I figured it was fair game because just yesterday I was called that word by one of our fine male fellow revolutionaries in the chat room. On reflection, I realize the chat room is not the same thing as the forums. But I think that's why the word was on my mind. Normally, I believe it's so toxic that I don't even try to use it in the reclaimed sense or in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way.

I don't think you're meant to use it in chat either, but I don't know if chat is moderated that much.