Angela Davis

[Ismail]

Yeah my mistake. She was only as staunch a communist as one could have been past the 1920's and especially past the dissolution of the Comintern within the official Communist Parties.

There were "hardliners" in the CPUSA who were not too happy about Khrushchev's "Secret Speech" and aspects of so-called "communist construction" in the USSR afterwards, so no, she was never as "staunch as she could have been" or whatever. She was basically a liberal riding on the coattails of the USSR's "struggle for peaceful coexistence," the "many roads to socialism," the "struggle against the cult of the individual" and other anti-Marxist measures which Khrushchev, Brezhnev and their successors initiated to build bridges between the revisionist parties and Western millionaires, social-democrats and liberals.

[Ostrinski]

There were "hardliners" in the CPUSA who were not too happy about Khrushchev's "Secret Speech" and aspects of so-called "communist construction" in the USSR afterwards, so no, she was never as "staunch as she could have been" or whatever. She was basically a liberal riding on the coattails of the USSR's "struggle for peaceful coexistence," the "many roads to socialism," the "struggle against the cult of the individual" and other anti-Marxist measures which Khrushchev, Brezhnev and their successors initiated to build bridges between the revisionist parties and Western millionaires, social-democrats and liberals.

Meh. It's all about perspective, then, I suppose. She's just as much a communist to me as any other Stalinist whether hardline or not, with all due respect.

[Ismail]

Meh. It's all about perspective, then, I suppose. She's just as much a communist to me as any other Stalinist whether hardline or not, with all due respect.

Such is the logic of people who see the line of Lenin and Stalin as continuous with that of Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Gorbachev, Tito, the Kims, Castro, and other revisionists.

[Rafiq]

Such is the logic of people who see the line of Lenin and Stalin as continuous with that of Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Gorbachev, Tito, the Kims, Castro, and other revisionists.

Whatever line that existed from Lenin to Stalin was one of desperate tragedy.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

She worked closely with the black panthers in the 60-70's.

Her musings on the use of violence have always fascinated me.

Is this stuff on violence available online?

[Prometeo liberado]

Whatever line that existed from Lenin to Stalin was one of desperate tragedy.

What took so long? I haven't been privy to a Rafiq/Ismail exchange for far to long. Go at it fellas.

Popcorn anyone?

[Rafiq]

What took so long? I haven't been privy to a Rafiq/Ismail exchange for far to long. Go at it fellas.

Popcorn anyone?

I've been offline for a while. Crazy shit going on here that I need to sort out. I'll be back soon, though. Soon..

[Ismail]

Whatever line that existed from Lenin to Stalin was one of desperate tragedy.

Stalin was but a pupil of Lenin, in Stalin's own words. He carried forward Lenin's theories against the distortions of Trotsky, Bukharin, and others. Of course the Soviet revisionists, Trotskyists, and others wanted to separate Lenin and Stalin just as the Eurocommunists and "humanists" wanted to separate Marx and Engels and contrast the "young" Marx with the "older" Marx, etc.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Stalin was but a pupil of Lenin, in Stalin's own words. He carried forward Lenin's theories against the distortions of Trotsky, Bukharin, and others. Of course the Soviet revisionists, Trotskyists, and others wanted to separate Lenin and Stalin just as the Eurocommunists and "humanists" wanted to separate Marx and Engels and contrast the "young" Marx with the "older" Marx, etc.

God forbid people ever changing, right?

[Ismail]

God forbid people ever changing, right?

The attempts to sever Stalin from Lenin, or Engels from Marx, can be compared to the attempts by Kautsky to turn Marx into a liberal (i.e. sever his work from Lenin) in order to unite Marx and his work with the social-patriotism and opportunism of the SPD leadership. Likewise the efforts of the Soviet revisionists to "return to Leninism" after Stalin's death, the Eurocommunists pushing for the image of the "humanist" Marx fixated mainly on alienation, etc. had the effect of allowing the promotion of all sorts of opportunist and anti-Marxist views and actions.

It is also rather amusing that a self-described "orthodox Marxist" is trying to insinuate "dogmatism."

[Art Vandelay]

The attempts to sever Stalin from Lenin, or Engels from Marx, can be compared to the attempts by Kautsky to turn Marx into a liberal (i.e. sever his work from Lenin) in order to unite Marx and his work with the social-patriotism and opportunism of the SPD leadership. Likewise the efforts of the Soviet revisionists to "return to Leninism" after Stalin's death, the Eurocommunists pushing for the image of the "humanist" Marx fixated mainly on alienation, etc. had the effect of allowing the promotion of all sorts of opportunist and anti-Marxist views and actions.

It is also rather amusing that a self-described "orthodox Marxist" is trying to insinuate "dogmatism."

What's humorous is you mistaking the 'orthodox' in 'orthodox Marxism' for some form of dogmatism or inflexibility in views, rather then an adherence to the Marxist paradigm.

Edit: 'Leninism' was a term invented after the death of Lenin and only exists in the minds of those who don't understand the man's views. He was an orthodox Marxist until his death, following in the line of Marx, Engels, Plekhanov and Kautsky, among others.

[brigadista]

thought this thread was about Angela Davis....

[Ismail]

Edit: 'Leninism' was a term invented after the death of Lenin and only exists in the minds of those who don't understand the man's views. He was an orthodox Marxist until his death, following in the line of Marx, Engels, Plekhanov and Kautsky, among others.

The same Kautsky who called for the defense of the German "fatherland" in WWI, advocated armed intervention against Soviet Russia, and ended his days as an anti-communist? The same Plekhanov who was aloof from the October Revolution? It was precisely the Second International and its parties which held high the banner of "orthodox Marxism" against the "Asiatic," "Slavic," "anti-Marxist" etc. tenets of Bolshevism, and sought to justify the defense of capitalism and the crushing of the world's first proletarian state on such a basis.

Why did it take over 80 years after Lenin died for some guy (Lars Lih) and some internet guys (DNZ, you, etc.) to find out that everyone else was wrong all along and that Lenin was actually "continuing" a line wherein two of its persons would rather not have seen the October Revolution?

[Art Vandelay]

The same Kautsky who called for the defense of the German "fatherland" in WWI, advocated armed intervention against Soviet Russia, and ended his days as an anti-communist? The same Plekhanov who was aloof from the October Revolution? It was precisely the Second International and its parties which held high the banner of "orthodox Marxism" against the "Asiatic," "Slavic," "anti-Marxist" etc. tenets of Bolshevism, and sought to justify the defense of capitalism and the crushing of the world's first proletarian state on such a basis.

Why do you feel this is a point in your favor, when 'orthodox Marxists' concede that these people renegaded on their past Marxist convictions?

Why did it take over 80 years after Lenin died for some guy (Lars Lih) and some internet guys (DNZ, you, etc.) to find out that everyone else was wrong all along and that Lenin was actually "continuing" a line wherein two of its persons would rather not have seen the October Revolution?

Because the Communist movement hasn't had its shit together for a very very long time. It fell prey to a reactionary historical epoch, mistranslations and interpretations, sectarianism, political murders, etc. Its really not hard to understand why, as we are just now re-entering into a revolutionary period in history and for the first time in a while there exists a real possibility of a communist movement being built, Marxists would be re-evaluating the past and attempting to see where things went wrong.

[Ismail]

Why do you feel this is a point in your favor, when 'orthodox Marxists' concede that these people renegaded on their past Marxist convictions?

For reasons similar to those of Dubček ("socialism with a human face") becoming an avowed social-democrat and upholding Sweden late in life, and Gorbachev denouncing "Stalinism" and carrying forward the banner of "Marxist humanism" and a "(true) return to Leninism" only to... wind up in the same position as Dubček.

Because believe it or not, both Kautsky and Plekhanov held opportunist and liberal views even in the former's "good" period which Lenin later pointed out. These views quite naturally led to them taking erroneous (in the case of Kautsky counter-revolutionary) lines.

Because the Communist movement hasn't had its shit together for a very very long time. It fell prey to a reactionary historical epoch, mistranslations and interpretations, sectarianism, political murders, etc. Its really not hard to understand why, as we are just now re-entering into a revolutionary period in history and for the first time in a while there exists a real possibility of a communist movement being built, Marxists would be re-evaluating the past and attempting to see where things went wrong.

Sounds like the same sort of stuff I could read on Kasama or some other ridiculous "STRUGGLE AGAINST DOGMATISM" blog.

[Rafiq]

Why did it take 50,000 years for some guy (Marx) to formulate an objective and scientific understanding of human social relations? Why did it take so long to form a real analysis of someone like Aristotle, etc? Why did it take so long to completely understand the transition to class society when the transition had already ocurred thousands of years prior? According to Ismail, the magnitude of somethings validity is determined by how popular or well known it is. This does nothing but demonstrate his Idealist conception of objective truth.

So much nonsense has been spewed by him here but I couldn't help confronting that. I'll be back... Soon....

For now:

lol @ Orthodox Marxism being renegede Kautskyanism

lol @ Orthodox Marxists (strict materialists) being humanists or eurocommunist trash

lol @ stalinists, trots etc. Claiming Lenin. The Lenin that broke with kautsky carrying forward the red banner as he did does not acknowledge his bastards (trotsky, stalin, etc.).

Wait when did I mention dogmatism?

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[skitty]

thought this thread was about Angela Davis....

I've made some progress in her book; and she joined CPUSA at a time when she thought world events were very promising. Things changed; and now I believe she is with the Green Party. She still refers to Marx and the end of capitalism. With so many wrongs to be addressed, she is asking all of us to get off our butts and do something: vote, help Occupy, or Idle No More, or GLBT's, or prisoners, or whoever. Remember the Panther breakfast program? Block a pipeline-even Sierra Club is going with civil disobedience, apparently. She is still leading by example; and anyone sitting around wondering if she is "Red"-enough for their fantasy revolution is just pissing away their time. Bottom line? She has given more, sacrificed more and accomplished more than most people I know. Thanks Angela!

[brigadista]

I've made some progress in her book; and she joined CPUSA at a time when she thought world events were very promising. Things changed; and now I believe she is with the Green Party. She still refers to Marx and the end of capitalism. With so many wrongs to be addressed, she is asking all of us to get off our butts and do something: vote, help Occupy, or Idle No More, or GLBT's, or prisoners, or whoever. Remember the Panther breakfast program? Block a pipeline-even Sierra Club is going with civil disobedience, apparently. She is still leading by example; and anyone sitting around wondering if she is "Red"-enough for their fantasy revolution is just pissing away their time. Bottom line? She has given more, sacrificed more and accomplished more than most people I know. Thanks Angela!

are you reading her autobiography? you may find this interesting skitty
if you havent already see it -interview from california prison in 1970- at 3.40 she states she was a member of the communist party

+ YouTube Video

[skitty]

are you reading her autobiography? you may find this interesting skitty
if you havent already see it -interview from california prison in 1970-

+ YouTube Video

Thanks very much. I'm reading The Meaning of Freedom. I think it's her latest. My only complaint is poor, or no proofreading.

[brigadista]

i can recommend her autobiography