Thread: A question to ML's, why do you have so much faith in the Vanguard?

Results 1 to 18 of 18

  1. #1
    Join Date Sep 2012
    Posts 1,168
    Rep Power 34

    Default A question to ML's, why do you have so much faith in the Vanguard?

    Something that I always found a bit curious about Marxist-Leninism is the faith in the party. It seems that to a large extent, Marxist Leninists believe that a party can uphold a correct ideological line by purging anyone within the party who does not. And you can see that in Hoxha's Albania this worked to a certain extent, but I feel like this vulgar theory of class struggle that the Marxist Leninist formulated (that is, that bureaucrats are capable of struggling against other bureaucrats in the name of the proletariat) lacks explanatory depth to why Capitalism was restored after Stalin and Hoxha. After all, if you could simply "purge" the bourgeois from above then how come they somehow manage to reemerge and become the majority faction in the party almost imediatly after the death of Stalin and Hoxha

    Generally, the explanation that it's all the damn bueracracy's fault seems to also have it's own faults and in this manner Hoxhaite Marxist Leninism seems to lapse into a sort of vulgar Trotskyism. The Bueracracy isn't a class, it is merely a function of the state, so it seems some what unmarxist to me to assign them the blame. In this manner, that analysis smells of a sort of anti-bueracratic populism that is hegemonic in most capitalist societies due to the natural contempt for any sort of state operation. For yes, I do acknowledge that the buercracy is a corrupting factor but this theory lacks any sort of praxis. So what if the buercracy is evil? Are we somehow going to manage a state without a bueracracy and have the party take over that function somehow? Or are we simply going to purge the bueracracy until it is ideologically pure? At least the worker's democracy and worker's self management that the Neo-Trotskyites advocate is approaching a sensible solution to this problem, but they still lapse into the old hatred of the bureaucrats that I find nonsensical and more importantly non-marxist.

    And as a brief side note for those of you who are confused, as a Maoist I believe that as long as the law of value operates, that capitalist social relations continue under socialism and that these social relationships which create a degree of privilege under socialism. And borrowing from Gramsci's theories of culture, we believe that the superstructure of bourgeois culture, thought, and beliefs, are maintained by these social relationships and exert themselves in all spheres of life. Therefore, we believe that the bourgeois exert their influence over both social relationships to the very party it's self which is why we believe that the party is not only fallible but generally the first institution to fall to the bourgeois, and that therefore the working class must be allowed to continue it's class struggle against these bourgeois and launch another revolution against them. The difference between our theory and that of Trotskyism is that the trots only advocate a mere political revolution, as if the planned economy is socialism and that we can achieve socialism by hanging a few buercrats. Borrowing from Gramsci, we believe that our revolution encompasses both the superstructure and the material base, combating both capitalism in it's material form, capitalists as individuals, and capitalist ideas such as patriarchy, racism, queerphobia, and ect.
  2. #2
    Join Date Oct 2012
    Location Richmond, VA
    Posts 919
    Organisation
    League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
    Rep Power 27

    Default

    I feel like this vulgar theory of class struggle that the Marxist Leninist formulated (that is, that bureaucrats are capable of struggling against other bureaucrats in the name of the proletariat) lacks explanatory depth to why Capitalism was restored after Stalin and Hoxha. After all, if you could simply "purge" the bourgeois from above then how come they somehow manage to reemerge and become the majority faction in the party almost imediatly after the death of Stalin and Hoxha
    One of the most retailed reasons amongst Marxist-Leninists for the demise of the Soviet Union and the "restoration" of capitalism in China is the 'traitors thesis'. At its crudest, the traitors thesis argues that the USSR was on track for socialism until the death of Stalin or Mao when a group of traitors to socialism, who had managed to worm their way into the top echelons of the party, took control.
    The real question is: why were 'capitalist roaders' or 'revisionists' constantly produced and reproduced under a regime, which was supposed to be socialist?

    I believe that as long as the law of value operates, that capitalist social relations continue under socialism and that these social relationships which create a degree of privilege under socialism.
    Socialism means the end to all capitalist relations. Socialism (or communism) is not a re-managed version of capitalism, it is a completely different system alltogether, and cannot be reconciled with capitalism, nor can there be a gradualist approach to communism, as many MLs seem to think.
    Any real change implies the breakup of the world as one has always known it, the loss of all that gave one an identity, the end of safety. And at such a moment, unable to see and not daring to imagine what the future will now bring forth, one clings to what one knew, or dreamed that one possessed. Yet, it is only when a man is able, without bitterness or self-pity, to surrender a dream he has long possessed that he is set free - he has set himself free - for higher dreams, for greater privileges.”
    -James Baldwin

    "We change ideas like neckties."
    - E.M. Cioran
  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Let's Get Free For This Useful Post:


  4. #3
    Join Date Sep 2012
    Posts 1,168
    Rep Power 34

    Default

    Socialism means the end to all capitalist relations. Socialism (or communism) is not a re-managed version of capitalism, it is a completely different system alltogether, and cannot be reconciled with capitalism, nor can there be a gradualist approach to communism, as many MLs seem to think.
    Well, OK, if we accept this then how do we manage an immediate transition to communism? Abolish the state? Well I'm sure the imperialists knocking on the door probably fantasize about that. Go straight into literal communism, as in set up communal systems throughout the country? At this point this is unrealistic considering that so much of the world is in urban areas that if a city were to go communal it's inhabitants would starve to death in months. Let's face it, there are real problems with the idea of communism that need to be grappled with concrete solutions. Denouncing gradualism seems to me a coup out without explanatory depth or a practical alternative
  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist For This Useful Post:


  6. #4
    Join Date Oct 2012
    Location Richmond, VA
    Posts 919
    Organisation
    League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
    Rep Power 27

    Default

    Well, OK, if we accept this then how do we manage an immediate transition to communism? Abolish the state? Well I'm sure the imperialists knocking on the door probably fantasize about that. Go straight into literal communism, as in set up communal systems throughout the country? At this point this is unrealistic considering that so much of the world is in urban areas that if a city were to go communal it's inhabitants would starve to death in months. Let's face it, there are real problems with the idea of communism that need to be grappled with concrete solutions. Denouncing gradualism seems to me a coup out without explanatory depth or a practical alternative
    Well first of all, there must be a broad desire and understanding for socialist principles among the masses. A new form of capitalism will inevitably be created as happened in the Soviet Union should it be the case that a majority of workers are still not socialist minded. That clearly applied in the case of Russia 1917.

    And your argument is a standard and well practiced evasion "well you cant expect to introduce communism immediately. Thats unrealistic" .
    Actually thats pretty much the only way you can introduce communism when you think about it - which is why the Communist Manifesto itself talks of communism being the most radical rupture with traditional property relations. You cant have something in between a money based economy and a non money based economy. Its one or the other. Its like being pregnant or not. You cant be a "little bit pregnant."

    How about this- instead of advocating a transitional period with the so called worker state AFTER the capture the political power - which is logically indefensible - think of the transition as something that happens BEFORE this event, when workers are becoming socialist minded.
    Any real change implies the breakup of the world as one has always known it, the loss of all that gave one an identity, the end of safety. And at such a moment, unable to see and not daring to imagine what the future will now bring forth, one clings to what one knew, or dreamed that one possessed. Yet, it is only when a man is able, without bitterness or self-pity, to surrender a dream he has long possessed that he is set free - he has set himself free - for higher dreams, for greater privileges.”
    -James Baldwin

    "We change ideas like neckties."
    - E.M. Cioran
  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Let's Get Free For This Useful Post:


  8. #5
    Join Date Jul 2010
    Posts 2,471
    Rep Power 44

    Default

    The reason that communism was possible at no other point in history is that the means of production had not been developed. Now they indisputably have reached full maturity. This means that communism on a world wide scale is possible right now. Industrialization has taught workers all the skills they require to operate all industries as they already do it on a daily basis. The whole world is not starving now (only part of it) so there's no reason to think we wouldn't continue to run industry in much the same way as we do right now but in common ownership rather than private. But of course we won't be able to provide details of exactly how it would run as that would depend on the material conditions present at the time. To do otherwise would be utopian.

    give this a read
    http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/e...tional-society
  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Manic Impressive For This Useful Post:


  10. #6
    Join Date Oct 2012
    Location Richmond, VA
    Posts 919
    Organisation
    League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
    Rep Power 27

    Default

    The reason that communism was possible at no other point in history is that the means of production had not been developed.
    I actually dont believe that the means of production need to be developed to any point or that there need to be any level of material abundance for socialism to be possible. Socialism is not about everyone having five Ipads, it is about developing a completely new series of non-antagonistic relationships between humans and between humans and nature.
    Any real change implies the breakup of the world as one has always known it, the loss of all that gave one an identity, the end of safety. And at such a moment, unable to see and not daring to imagine what the future will now bring forth, one clings to what one knew, or dreamed that one possessed. Yet, it is only when a man is able, without bitterness or self-pity, to surrender a dream he has long possessed that he is set free - he has set himself free - for higher dreams, for greater privileges.”
    -James Baldwin

    "We change ideas like neckties."
    - E.M. Cioran
  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Let's Get Free For This Useful Post:


  12. #7
    Join Date Jul 2010
    Posts 2,471
    Rep Power 44

    Default

    I actually dont believe that the means of production need to be developed to any point or that there need to be any level of material abundance for socialism to be possible. Socialism is not about everyone having five Ipads, it is about developing a completely new series of non-antagonistic relationships between humans and between humans and nature.
    It's on the basis of from each according to their abilities to each according their needs. A global society of common ownership. This has not been possible at any other point in history and industrialization is what has made this possible.
  13. #8
    Join Date Oct 2012
    Location Richmond, VA
    Posts 919
    Organisation
    League of Extraordinary Gentlemen
    Rep Power 27

    Default

    It's on the basis of from each according to their abilities to each according their needs. A global society of common ownership. This has not been possible at any other point in history and industrialization is what has made this possible.
    It's true that industrialization has made possible material abundance never before seen in history but at the same time, it has been crucial in establishing the despotism of capital and the removal of barriers and resistance to its power.
    Any real change implies the breakup of the world as one has always known it, the loss of all that gave one an identity, the end of safety. And at such a moment, unable to see and not daring to imagine what the future will now bring forth, one clings to what one knew, or dreamed that one possessed. Yet, it is only when a man is able, without bitterness or self-pity, to surrender a dream he has long possessed that he is set free - he has set himself free - for higher dreams, for greater privileges.”
    -James Baldwin

    "We change ideas like neckties."
    - E.M. Cioran
  14. #9
    Join Date Jul 2010
    Posts 2,471
    Rep Power 44

    Default

    It's true that industrialization has made possible material abundance never before seen in history but at the same time, it has been crucial in establishing the despotism of capital and the removal of barriers and resistance to its power.
    Not just material abundance but the logistical requirements needed to make this a world wide reality. Also disagree with the second part but in the interests of staying on topic. I'm not telling you why
  15. #10
    Join Date May 2007
    Posts 4,669
    Rep Power 82

    Default

    The real question is: why were 'capitalist roaders' or 'revisionists' constantly produced and reproduced under a regime, which was supposed to be socialist?
    To quote Marx, socialism is "in every respect, economically, morally and intellectually, still stamped with the birth marks of the old society." Bureaucratic methods of management, the continued existence of commodities and wages, and other aspects of old society were necessary; Lenin himself argued consistently for the need to rely, for a time, on the bourgeois and Tsarist-era managers and officials in order to rehabilitate industry. Yet these remnants of the old society, combined with the low technical level of the working-class, clearly made the danger of capitalist restoration acute.

    Stalin fought against capitalist restoration to the best of his abilities. Although the Maoists whine about how he used "police methods," he also used ideology; he attacked the revisionism of Varga, Voznesensky, and other right-wingers in the fields of theory and economics, who were rehabilitated after 1956. Months before his death he argued the need for significant improvements to the propaganda work of the CPSU and had proposed the replacement of commodities in the countryside with products-exchange. Government reforms were also proposed by him, which began to be discarded literally hours after his death.

    From Lenin's time onwards managers occupied a relatively privileged position in Soviet society. This was a conscious decision designed to ensure that they worked. The point was that the manager would be constantly watched by the Party organization of the factory. The Party bureaucracy also grew during this same period, began to form cliques (such as Khrushchev's) and try to undermine the authority of the center. The Great Purges, as Getty notes, had a definite anti-bureaucratic bent, encouraging worker participation in both factories and in Party organizations, but this could only be a temporary phenomenon.

    Because of the situation which confronted the USSR, the problems of managers and many Party leaders adopting bourgeois viewpoints could not be adequately overcome. Stalin pursued correct lines and denounced incorrect and revisionist lines, but that's one man. Molotov, Kaganovich and others supported these lines, but those are individuals as well. Even in the field of individuals you have Beria (commanded the security police), Khrushchev (headed a powerful Party clique), Voroshilov and Zhukov ("heroes" of the war, enjoyed high prestige), and various other Party bureaucrats and economists of high esteem among their fellow revisionists; all these persons had more weight to throw around than the Marxist-Leninists on the Central Committee.

    Then, as Hoxha and others noted, Khrushchev thoroughly purged (in the "proper" sense of the term, i.e. non-violently) the Party in the 50's-60's, both under the banner of "combating the cult of the individual" and in terms of making it more "professional" (i.e. blur the distinction between economics and politics and subordinate the latter to the former.)

    I actually dont believe that the means of production need to be developed to any point or that there need to be any level of material abundance for socialism to be possible. Socialism is not about everyone having five Ipads, it is about developing a completely new series of non-antagonistic relationships between humans and between humans and nature.
    It is possible to make a fetish out of the productive forces (Deng being an infamous example, justifying everything so long as it "develops the productive forces" and thus supposedly is in line with Marxism), but the continuous development of these forces, combined with the further revolutionization of relations to the means of production, are constant tasks for any socialist society.
    Last edited by Ismail; 22nd January 2013 at 13:59.
    * h0m0revolutionary: "neo-liberalism can deliver healthy children, it can educate them, it can feed them, it can clothe them and leave them fully contented."
    * rooster: "Supporting [anti-imperialism] is reactionary. How is any nation supposed to stand up [to] the might of the US anyway?"
    * nizan: "Fuck your education is empowerment bullshit, education is alienation, nothing more. You indulge in a dying prestige for a role in a bureaucratic spectacle deserving of nothing beyond contempt."
    * Alexios: "To the Board Administration: Ismail [...] needs to be eliminated from this forum."
  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ismail For This Useful Post:


  17. #11
    Join Date Jun 2012
    Location North East of England
    Posts 175
    Rep Power 9

    Default

    Socialism means the end to all capitalist relations. Socialism (or communism) is not a re-managed version of capitalism, it is a completely different system alltogether, and cannot be reconciled with capitalism, nor can there be a gradualist approach to communism, as many MLs seem to think.
    The two stage theory --the gradualist approach (that society must pass through a period of bourgeois capitalism before socialism is possible)-- for one is Eurocentric and history has borne witness to its defects. Strange that it was willingly adopted by Stalin and is a cornerstone of Marxist-Leninist theory when it would be the very thing that empowered the reactionaries to set the Soviet Union on a course to capitalist restoration. It is also arguably to blame for the Dengist deviation in China and more recently Nepal. I think it deserves a serious re-appraisal by Marxist-Leninists.
  18. #12
    Join Date May 2007
    Posts 4,669
    Rep Power 82

    Default

    The two stage theory --the gradualist approach (that society must pass through a period of bourgeois capitalism before socialism is possible)-- for one is Eurocentric and history has borne witness to its defects. Strange that it was willingly adopted by Stalin and is a cornerstone of Marxist-Leninist theory when it would be the very thing that empowered the reactionaries to set the Soviet Union on a course to capitalist restoration. It is also arguably to blame for the Dengist deviation in China and more recently Nepal. I think it deserves a serious re-appraisal by Marxist-Leninists.
    Except this makes no sense, since the entire "argument" of Deng and his successors is that China is socialist and that it's absurd to think it could revert back to capitalism anymore than capitalism could revert to feudalism. The Soviet revisionists made similar claims.

    The "two stage theory" is the theory of Lenin and Stalin, that the bourgeois-democratic revolution passes into the socialist revolution under the leadership of the proletarian vanguard. The Soviet revisionists argued something totally different: that India, Egypt, Algeria, Iraq, etc. were pursuing "non-capitalist development" and were therefore objectively marching on the road of socialism even without proletarian vanguards, and that the existence of the USSR made this possible somehow.

    As for Nepal, you can thank Mao's concept of "New Democracy" and the right-wing views of the Nepali Maoists to begin with, not the doctrines of Lenin and Stalin. In fact one of the most notable Nepali Maoists, B. Bhattarai (who is today the country's Prime Minister), wrote that, "Trotskyism has become more relevant than Stalinism to advance the cause of the proletariat."
    Last edited by Ismail; 22nd January 2013 at 15:48.
    * h0m0revolutionary: "neo-liberalism can deliver healthy children, it can educate them, it can feed them, it can clothe them and leave them fully contented."
    * rooster: "Supporting [anti-imperialism] is reactionary. How is any nation supposed to stand up [to] the might of the US anyway?"
    * nizan: "Fuck your education is empowerment bullshit, education is alienation, nothing more. You indulge in a dying prestige for a role in a bureaucratic spectacle deserving of nothing beyond contempt."
    * Alexios: "To the Board Administration: Ismail [...] needs to be eliminated from this forum."
  19. #13
    Join Date Aug 2010
    Posts 229
    Rep Power 11

    Default

    I can't see the origin of the split between the Maoist and the ML(Albanian) theories of the restorarition of Capitalism, they are virtually the same, formulated at the time when both China and Albania were allies, not only that but all the theoretical justification behind the Cultural Revolution was that the capitalist roaders headed by Liu Shao Chi and Deng Xiaoping were trying to move China into the same path that Kruschev had sent the USSR and countries of Eastern Europe years before, the Chinese also agreed with Enver Hoxha that this proccess first appeared in Yugoslavia under Tito. The Sino-Albanian split happened over other theoretical matters (the class nature of the PRC, the rise of Deng Xiaoping and the nature of the Cultural Revolution). For example Louis Althusser is attributed in writting a very simple introduction on this question, we could compare with Bill Bland's ''Restoration of Capitalism in the Soviet Union'' and the only major difference would be that Bland's uses a different, more economical and historical approach, where Althusser focuses on the political-philosophical side of the issue.

    Let’s recall what a socialist country is.

    It’s a country where a political socialist revolution has taken place(seizing power in historically different conditions, but leading to the dictatorship of the proletariat), then an economic revolution (socialization of the means of production, establishment of socialist relations of production). A socialist country thus constituted “builds socialism” under the dictatorship of the proletariat and, when the moment comes, prepares for the transition to communism. It is a long, drawn-out process. Now, in the eyes of the C.C.P., a critical examination of the “positive and negative experiences” of socialist revolutions—their victories and failures, their difficulties, their progress, their degree of advancement (in the U.S.S.R., in the socialist countries of Central Europe, in Yugoslavia, in China, in North Korea, in North Vietnam, in Cuba)—shows that every socialist country has found itself, or finds itself, or will find itself, even once it has “more or less” completed the socialization of the means of production, faced with a crucial problem: that of the two “roads.”

    The problem is the following. We are going to state it in the form of questions.

    In the different phases of revolutionary transitions that make a social formation of capitalism pass over to socialism then to communism, does there not exist, in each of these phases, an objective risk of “regression”?Isn’t this risk the result of the politics pursued by the revolutionary party, its correctness or falseness; not only its general line, but also the specific ways it is applied? In the way the hierarchy and articulation of objectives is determined and in the objective mechanisms (economic, political, ideological) put into place by this politics? Is there not a logic and a necessity to these mechanisms such that they can cause the socialist country to “regress” “towards capitalism”? Moreover, isn’t this risk exacerbated by the existence of imperialism, by its means (economic, political, military, ideological), by the support it can draw on from certain elements within a socialist country, by occupying some of this country’s voids (cf. ideology), by using its mechanisms to neutralize and utilize it politically, then dominate it economically?

    Considering this general risk, and using the terms currently deployed by the Chinese Communist Party, is the future of socialism in a country completely, that is to say, definitively, irreversibly, 100 percent assured based on the mere fact that this country has achieved a twofold revolution, both political and economic? Can it not regress toward capitalism?

    Don’t we already have an example of such a regression: Yugoslavia?

    Is it not possible, then, that a socialist country might conserve, even for a long time, the outward form or forms (economic, political) of socialism, all the while giving them a completely different economic, political and ideological content (mechanism of restoration of capitalism), all the while letting itself be progressively neutralized and then used politically and dominated economically by imperialism?

    This problem is of a piece with the C.C.P. thesis on the risk that a socialist country might “regress” toward capitalism. It is on the basis of this general thesis that it is possible to say that socialist countries constantly find themselves confronted with an alternative between “two roads.”This alternative can, in certain circumstances, become particularly critical, even today. Two roads, then, open up before the socialist countries, in view of the results obtained in their revolution:

    — the revolutionary road, which leads beyond the obtained results, toward the consolidation and development of socialism, then toward the passage to communism;

    — the regressive road, which falls back on this side of the obtained results, toward the neutralization then political utilization then economic domination and “digestion” of a socialist country by imperialism: the road of “regression back toward capitalism.”

    The alternative between two roads, then, is this: either “stop halfway,”which really means regressing, or do not “stop half-way,” that is,*keep moving forward. In the official Chinese texts, the first road is characterized, in shorthand, as the “capitalist” road (it is a question of “leaders who take the capitalist road”), and the second road is characterized, again in shorthand, as the “revolutionary road".Such is the dominant political problem posed by the political of theconjuncture of the C.R.
    http://scholar.oxy.edu/cgi/viewconte...text=decalages
    ''...to keep in mind that socialism, since it has become a science, demands that it be pursued as a science, i.e., that it be studied.''
  20. #14
    Join Date May 2007
    Posts 4,669
    Rep Power 82

    Default

    I can't see the origin of the split between the Maoist and the ML(Albanian) theories of the restorarition of Capitalism,
    I'm pretty sure no one brought the subject up in this topic.

    Maoists use the restoration of capitalism in the USSR to justify the "Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" and other liberal and anti-Marxist measures which Mao advocated. They attack Stalin in the process, while claiming that Mao uncovered his "mistakes."
    * h0m0revolutionary: "neo-liberalism can deliver healthy children, it can educate them, it can feed them, it can clothe them and leave them fully contented."
    * rooster: "Supporting [anti-imperialism] is reactionary. How is any nation supposed to stand up [to] the might of the US anyway?"
    * nizan: "Fuck your education is empowerment bullshit, education is alienation, nothing more. You indulge in a dying prestige for a role in a bureaucratic spectacle deserving of nothing beyond contempt."
    * Alexios: "To the Board Administration: Ismail [...] needs to be eliminated from this forum."
  21. #15
    Join Date Aug 2010
    Posts 229
    Rep Power 11

    Default

    I'm pretty sure no one brought the subject up in this topic.
    The OP:
    Something that I always found a bit curious about Marxist-Leninism is the faith in the party. It seems that to a large extent, Marxist Leninists believe that a party can uphold a correct ideological line by purging anyone within the party who does not. And you can see that in Hoxha's Albania this worked to a certain extent, but I feel like this vulgar theory of class struggle that the Marxist Leninist formulated (that is, that bureaucrats are capable of struggling against other bureaucrats in the name of the proletariat) lacks explanatory depth to why Capitalism was restored after Stalin and Hoxha. After all, if you could simply "purge" the bourgeois from above then how come they somehow manage to reemerge and become the majority faction in the party almost imediatly after the death of Stalin and Hoxha.
    Whereas the Cultural Revolution in the end was just one really big purge with more ideological rhetoric invested on it.
    ''...to keep in mind that socialism, since it has become a science, demands that it be pursued as a science, i.e., that it be studied.''
  22. #16
    Join Date Jun 2012
    Location North East of England
    Posts 175
    Rep Power 9

    Default

    Except this makes no sense, since the entire "argument" of Deng and his successors is that China is socialist and that it's absurd to think it could revert back to capitalism anymore than capitalism could revert to feudalism. The Soviet revisionists made similar claims.

    The "two stage theory" is the theory of Lenin and Stalin, that the bourgeois-democratic revolution passes into the socialist revolution under the leadership of the proletarian vanguard. The Soviet revisionists argued something totally different: that India, Egypt, Algeria, Iraq, etc. were pursuing "non-capitalist development" and were therefore objectively marching on the road of socialism even without proletarian vanguards, and that the existence of the USSR made this possible somehow.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the bourgeois revolutions supported by Krushchev, to which you refer, the very same bourgeois democratic revolutions discussed in the two-stage theory and classical Marxism (also Eurocentric in my opinion) as a necessary stepping stone to socialism? It might have made sense at a time before neoliberalism became global system (making economic development impossible for the global South), but today just isn't feasible. We know how that story ended now. The new bureaucratic bourgeoisie became a comprador class that sold out the popular classes out to imperialism with the advent of neoliberalism from the 1970's onwards.

    I'll give you your point about Deng, but the Socialist Market Economy was still justified with the two-stage theory, at least in part.

    As for Nepal, you can thank Mao's concept of "New Democracy" and the right-wing views of the Nepali Maoists to begin with, not the doctrines of Lenin and Stalin.
    Right-wing indeed, but I don't see where 'New Democracy' is to blame here when New Democracy recommends the opposite of the road taken in the end by the Nepalese Maoists. Nothing in New Democracy licenses a conventional National Democratic Revolution in the vein of the NAM states or Lenin's New Economic Policy, much less the pursuit of revolutionary change through parliamentary reform and reactionary coalitions as in the case of Nepal.

    The whole point of New Democracy is that a bourgeois democratic stage is impossible in undeveloped, semi-feudal societies (and for that matter, purely feudal societies under global imperialism) and that they must be bypassed. The Nepal Maoists claim to adhere to New Democracy, but only after the autocratic feudal superstructure in Nepal (which the UCP(M) insists is distinct from the semi-feudal conditions of your typical undeveloped state and virtually unique in the world in that its superstructure has remained virtually unchanged altogether since capitalism was introduced to Asia, which makes the national bourgeoisie too weak) has been at least partly destroyed.

    In fact one of the most notable Nepali Maoists, B. Bhattarai (who is today the country's Prime Minister), wrote that, "Trotskyism has become more relevant than Stalinism to advance the cause of the proletariat."
    Interesting you should mention that. I'm looking at an interview with Bhattarai here, where he rationalises the UCP(M) political and economic compromise.
    We called this one of the features of Prachanda Path, which we regarded as a new development in the theory of MLM. After 2001 we still adhered to the People's War but we resorted to some of the tactics of general insurrection, that's why when we were in the People's War we always talked of political negotiations and we actually had two rounds of political negotiations. During that time we raised the issues of Constituent Assembly, abolition of the monarchy and establishment of a bourgeois democratic republic. These were the tactics we followed while we were in the PPW. Why we did that was because in the specific conditions of Nepal, though we are in the stage of transition from feudalism to capitalism, in our case the feudal system had been basically led by an autocratic monarchy for thousands of years. In most third world countries autocratic monarchy has already been abolished, and in those countries, though the basic foundation of society is still semi-feudal, semi-colonial, the political superstructure was led by bourgeois democrats. But in our case even the political superstructure was dominated by the autocratic feudal monarchy, the national bourgeoisie was very weak and they could not carry forward the bourgeois democratic revolution. It was the proletarian party which had to take the lead to abolish the autocratic monarchy and introduce a bourgeois democracy, which could be again transformed through struggle into New Democracy, a proletarian democratic system.
    Was this really something Mao would advocated in a country like Nepal? I doubt it. I think he would have abhorred it as much as Bhattarai's endorsement of Trotsky.
  23. #17
    Join Date May 2007
    Posts 4,669
    Rep Power 82

    Default

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the bourgeois revolutions supported by Krushchev, to which you refer, the very same bourgeois democratic revolutions discussed in the two-stage theory and classical Marxism (also Eurocentric in my opinion) as a necessary stepping stone to socialism?
    The point is that it was the proletariat which could carry out the bourgeois-democratic revolution through to the end. The Soviet revisionists did not merely "support" such revolutions, but declared them basically socialist and called on the communist parties to endorse the likes of Nehru, Indira Gandhi, Ne Win and others as "anti-capitalists" whose policies were laying the foundations for socialism.

    For a good overview on this subject, contrasting Lenin and Stalin's views to those of the revisionists, see: http://ml-review.ca/aml/AllianceIssu...-colonial.html
    * h0m0revolutionary: "neo-liberalism can deliver healthy children, it can educate them, it can feed them, it can clothe them and leave them fully contented."
    * rooster: "Supporting [anti-imperialism] is reactionary. How is any nation supposed to stand up [to] the might of the US anyway?"
    * nizan: "Fuck your education is empowerment bullshit, education is alienation, nothing more. You indulge in a dying prestige for a role in a bureaucratic spectacle deserving of nothing beyond contempt."
    * Alexios: "To the Board Administration: Ismail [...] needs to be eliminated from this forum."
  24. #18
    Join Date Sep 2012
    Posts 1,168
    Rep Power 34

    Default

    The reason that communism was possible at no other point in history is that the means of production had not been developed. Now they indisputably have reached full maturity. This means that communism on a world wide scale is possible right now. Industrialization has taught workers all the skills they require to operate all industries as they already do it on a daily basis. The whole world is not starving now (only part of it) so there's no reason to think we wouldn't continue to run industry in much the same way as we do right now but in common ownership rather than private. But of course we won't be able to provide details of exactly how it would run as that would depend on the material conditions present at the time. To do otherwise would be utopian.

    give this a read
    http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/e...tional-society
    Will do, thanks comrade.

Similar Threads

  1. Question For ML's
    By Orlov in forum Social and off topic
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 25th March 2012, 15:00
  2. A vanguard related question.
    By 4th supporter in forum Learning
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10th February 2012, 05:18
  3. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 12th May 2010, 01:10
  4. Question for supporters of DOP and Vanguard
    By OneBrickOneVoice in forum Theory
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 26th May 2006, 21:40

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Tags for this Thread