Obama and the Fiscal Cliff

[radicalawyer]

So labor unions helped get the Pres elected this week, especially in the Rust Belt and Mid-West. John Boenher is saying he won't budge on taxes for the richest Americans. I think it would be awesome if the Pres would call his bluff and call him out on it. This is a major issue for unions, and I don't think they should be sold out when they just delivered the election to you.

Thoughts?

[spice756]

The fact the media is so worked up over the Fiscal Cliff and debt goes to show how brainwash the public is. You can't even turn CNN on with out hearing Fiscal Cliff and debt and how Democratic party should compromise cut all social programs and spendings !! When all they have do is raise the debt ceiling.

It the worse thing you can do in a recession is cut social programs .

[Prof. Oblivion]

It the worse thing you can do in a recession is cut social programs .

Technically, the recession ended some time ago. People are worried the fiscal cliff will bring us into another one.

[Os Cangaceiros]

There will be a bunch of moaning and whining and political grandstanding before both sides finally just begrudgingly agree to some deal, just like they did last time with the last debt ceiling debate.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The fact the media is so worked up over the Fiscal Cliff and debt goes to show how brainwash the public is.

Not really - how many regular people who aren't "news junkies" are more worried about "the fiscal cliff" than unemployment, inequality, things stagnating and being hard?

It's more like, the political establishment wants people to be convinced about how urgent this is and so they keep pushing the story in op-eds and faxes to the news organizations, in political discussions etc. They want to rally the right while also scaring Obama supporters so that they can make it seem like they have no choice but to make cuts.

You can't even turn CNN on with out hearing Fiscal Cliff and debt and how Democratic party should compromise cut all social programs and spendings !! When all they have do is raise the debt ceiling.

Yeah, but they want austerity - but they have to convince the public that it's best to swallow the pill unlike Republicans who would threaten some people with it while also making the pill sound like candy.

It the worse thing you can do in a recession is cut social programs .

For who? For us, yes. But internationally, the capitalists have decided that austerity is their answer. So the Republicans take the role of the bad cop, threatening to throw the book at the population whereas the Democrats generally play the role of trying to convince us we have no other choice either because the right wing opposition is "too strong" or because "we all have to make sacrifices".

[spice756]

Not really - how many regular people who aren't "news junkies" are more worried about "the fiscal cliff" than unemployment, inequality, things stagnating and being hard?

It's more like, the political establishment wants people to be convinced about how urgent this is and so they keep pushing the story in op-eds and faxes to the news organizations, in political discussions etc. They want to rally the right while also scaring Obama supporters so that they can make it seem like they have no choice but to make cuts.

Yeah, but they want austerity - but they have to convince the public that it's best to swallow the pill unlike Republicans who would threaten some people with it while also making the pill sound like candy.

For who? For us, yes. But internationally, the capitalists have decided that austerity is their answer. So the Republicans take the role of the bad cop, threatening to throw the book at the population whereas the Democrats generally play the role of trying to convince us we have no other choice either because the right wing opposition is "too strong" or because "we all have to make sacrifices".

The thing is media like CNN every day is saying if the Democratic party should compromise or because of the Fiscal Cliff , high debt and spendings you have high unemployment and very big recession .

[RebelDog]

[FONT=verdana]"There really is no shame," commented Bernie Sanders (Ind- Vt). "The Wall Street leaders whose recklessness and illegal behavior caused this terrible recession are now lecturing the American people on the need for courage to deal with the nation's finances and deficit crisis. Before telling us why we should cut Social Security, Medicare and other vitally important programs, these CEOs might want to take a hard look at their responsibility for causing the deficit and this terrible recession."

"Our Wall Street friends might also want to show some courage of their own by suggesting that the wealthiest people in this country, like them, start paying their fair share of taxes" continued Sanders. "They might work to end the outrageous corporate loopholes, tax havens and outsourcing provisions that their lobbyists have littered throughout the tax code - contributing greatly to our deficit."[/FONT]

http://www.zcommunications.org/the-w...by-carl-bloice

[Jimmie Higgins]

The thing is media like CNN every day is saying if the Democratic party should compromise or because of the Fiscal Cliff , high debt and spendings you have high unemployment and very big recession .

Well yeah, it's part of the hype to make it seem like these are our only options. Debt like this isn't a real thing, it's potential money promised from one part of the ruling class to the other.

If there was a war or need for some new TARP-style bailout, the deficit would suddenly become a non-issue in the media and among polticians. It's only an issue now because the ruling class wants to use the crisis to reorganize things in society to their benifit.

It won't solve the crisis as it affects the working class - it will make things worse because they will probably try and lock-in cuts now "out of necissity" that will then quietly become permanent. Social spending will be locked at recession-levels in some of these arrangements for years ahead irregardless of any future economic booms.

At least in other countries the ruling class can say, "It's the IMF" or "It's Germany" but here, it's voluntary so they have to invent this sense that the deficit is an immediate "natural" problem with no alternative solution other than austerity measures.

The "fiscal cliff" is estimated to cause about $500 billion in automatic cuts. Mainstream media in the US, however, estimates that Obama's "grand bargin" to avoid the fiscal cliff would still result in over $400 billion/year - $400 Trillion over 10 years!

So really, is one billion difference going to matter either for keynsian stimulous or to the impact on US workers - no. That's not the point, the point is austerity and reorganizing the social expectations for "entitlements" and directly reorganizing (cutting) Medicare and Social Security. In 2011 Obama had another secret deal with the republicans which was recently released by the Washington Post - in this previously unreleased plan, Obama proposed further cuts to Medicare, social security and even military retirement:

This is a confidential document, last offer the president -- the White House made last year to Speaker Boehner to try to reach this $4 trillion grand bargain. And it's long and it's tedious and it's got budget jargon in it. But what it shows is a willingness to cut all kinds of things, like TRICARE, which is the sacred health insurance program for the military, for military retirees; to cut Social Security; to cut Medicare. And there are some lines in there about, "We want to get tax rates down, not only for individuals but for businesses." So Obama and the White House were willing to go quite far.

In the Admin's documents they don't even call "social security" by its name, they call it "civilian retirement funds" which I think goes to show how consious they are that they are directly betryaing their supporters - and how popular this program is across all party lines and in the whole population.

[Prof. Oblivion]

There will be a bunch of moaning and whining and political grandstanding before both sides finally just begrudgingly agree to some deal, just like they did last time with the last debt ceiling debate.

While this is the most likely scenario, a trip off the cliff has a greater probability than I initially thought, not only because of both sides being emboldened from the election, but also because a trip off the cliff would give Obama a lot of political leverage against the republicans, making it possible for democrats to paint the republicans as a party who represents the rich at the expense of the country and was willing to send the country into another recession solely for wealthy tax cut extensions. Though I see Obama as too much of a centrist to let this happen, it isn't unrealistic.

Not really - how many regular people who aren't "news junkies" are more worried about "the fiscal cliff" than unemployment, inequality, things stagnating and being hard?

It's more like, the political establishment wants people to be convinced about how urgent this is and so they keep pushing the story in op-eds and faxes to the news organizations, in political discussions etc. They want to rally the right while also scaring Obama supporters so that they can make it seem like they have no choice but to make cuts.

Well the "vast majority" of people aren't involved in the financial markets to any meaningful extent so I don't really see this as a valid argument. The fiscal cliff is going to be something that affects the financial markets most significantly, and so that is why it is being focused on by finance companies so much. The US being a country dominated by finance, it is obvious why it is being discussed so extensively.

Also, in the markets, perceptions are reality, or at least are made real by people acting on them, so even if, in a strictly economic sense, the fiscal cliff isn't a "real" problem, it is definitely having a big impact on the markets.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well the "vast majority" of people aren't involved in the financial markets to any meaningful extent so I don't really see this as a valid argument.

I was responding to the argument that the media is hyping this in response to the public being so brainwashed:

"The fact the media is so worked up over the Fiscal Cliff and debt goes to show how brainwash the public is."

I think people are more worried about other things, but the media and politicians are tying to convince the public that this is a major threat.

Obama is campaigning harder to convince his supporters that his plan for "the financial cliff" ($400b/year as opposed to $500b/year in cuts which the "cliff" would cause) is somehow in their interests - even though most voted for him to PREVENT just that kind of thing. He has created a "grassroots" team to convince his supporters of his "Grand Bargin".

So yes, of course the financial sector wants it - I was disagreeing that people generally in the US want this. They don't and so Obama is tasked by Wall Street to convince the population that there is no alternative.

WASHINGTON -- President Barack Obama is preparing to expand the fiscal cliff fight beyond the confines of Washington, travelling the country and leaning on Democratic activist groups to help apply political pressure.

IMO this is less about "battling republicans" than selling working class liberals on the idea of slitting their own wrists.

[GoddessCleoLover]

The so-called "fiscal cliff" is just a red herring being used to convince Obama voters to accept draconian cuts, in other words to enact Romneyism despite the fact that the voters rejected Romney.