Kautsky and the worker's movement.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Who was Kautsky? So far I've only found that he was some sort of social democrat who turned opportunist (?) during the later days of his life, and that his earlier works are in-depth and revolve around a so called "worker's movement".

Would anyone be able to send me in the direction of Kautsky's more important works, along with explaining what exactly the 'worker's movement' was?

[Q]

Kautsky was the editor of Die Neue Zeit, a journal that he maintained from its inception in 1883 until he was removed by the SPD leadership in 1917 (for his later-day opposition to the war). In this role he proved to be far influential in establishing Marxism as a theoretical system.

He was obviously a productive writer, but if you want to gain an insight in his basic strategic thinking, The Class struggle (a commentary on the 1891 Erfurt Programme) is highly useful reading. This programme inspired a huge mass movement throughout Europe, that included the RSDLP (of which the Bolsheviks were a part).

Lenin called him a "renegade" because he reneged on his Marxism he always professed, in 1914 when the war broke out and Kautsky switched to defend the German war effort because the alternative (a Russian Tsarist invasion) would be catastrophic for the German workers movement (at the time the largest and most advanced Marxist movement in the world). Consequently the revolutionary center of the Second Intenational largely collapsed, leaving the Bolsheviks isolated.

So yeah, in a nutshell. Kautsky's work is one that shouldn't be discarded as "heretic" though, but one where can (re)learn a lot from and, crucially, understand the context Lenin and the Bolsheviks were coming from.

[Nihilist Scud Missile]

Who was Kautsky? So far I've only found that he was some sort of social democrat who turned opportunist (?) during the later days of his life, and that his earlier works are in-depth and revolve around a so called "worker's movement".

Would anyone be able to send me in the direction of Kautsky's more important works, along with explaining what exactly the 'worker's movement' was?

He didn't agree with the Bolsheviks vanguard ie 'leading' workers to socialism he thought it should be a more democratic process, as in, as mass movement. He thought (and rightly so) workers needed to be in a proper state of both economic and social conditions before socialism could be attained so he didn't agree with the Russian path to "socialism" (and did Russia ever achieve socialism? He predicted it wouldn't). For that he was targeted by Lenin and came away with the name "renegade".

He's no saint or "perfect Marxist" either but I think most of his choices centered around the FACT capitalism was too young, still growing/expanding for communism to replace it. If Marx were alive in Lenin's time, Kautsky argued, Marx would have agreed and would have worked to educate workers via struggle in the more advanced capitalist nations rather than push for revolutions in backwards nations. Most Leninists will say Kautsky was a sell out, a reformist and anti- revolutionary. In Kautsky's own words he thought only advanced capitalist nations with workers who have had some semblance of democratic rights under enlightenment values could create workers ready to create communism. This obviously pissed Lenin off because as we know Russia was not at the stage in 1917. Some of Kautsky's actions are way off base but much of Lenin/Soviet/Bolshevik criticism of him is also way off base. He at times supported the spread of bourgeois capitalism with the idea that the more the system is global, the more total and complete capitalism becomes, the more capitalism creates a 'proper proletariat' the bigger the chance that workers will destroy capitalism. This has also been at the center of many insults thrown at Kautsky but he argued Marx thought the same way.

Start here to gain a more objective look at Kautsky:

http://www.socialisteducation.org/KKautsky.html

Then read this, one of his late works the Soviet Union "banned": http://www.marxists.org/archive/kaut...evism/ch04.htm

All of his works are here:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/index.htm

He supported revolution, was aware communism couldn't be voted in but the revolution he envisioned was facilitated by a mass movement of working class in the most advanced capitalist nations not a vanguard leading people to communism in less advanced nations. This is at the core of the Lenin/Kautsky conflict. If it were entirely up to Kautsky, I think, humanity wouldn't have attempted a communist revolution until capitalism had pretty well spread out across the globe, until capitalism had reached it's "highest stage" with a proper global work force NOT a third world slave force lead by Bolsheviks. What was that book Lenin wrote about imperialism? He took the opposite view of Kautsky. He thought third world workers in colonial nations were they true revolutionary class and that capitalism had reached it's highest stage by creating this class. This was the basis for Maoism. I prefer Kautsky's view myself

*braces self for massive negative reputation*

[l'Enfermé]

^^^

"He didn't agree with the Bolsheviks vanguard ie 'leading' workers to socialism he thought it should be a more democratic process, as in, as mass movement."

Yes he did. The original "vanguard party" was the pre-war SPD, of which Kautsky was the leading theorist. The "vanguard" party is by definition a mass-party. Lenin and the rest of the Bolsheviks consider Kautsky's SPD the flagship of international Social-Democracy and Marxism, and tried to emulate the SPD model, as appropriate in Russia.

Until the end of his days, Lenin pretty much remained a Kautskyist. The polemics of the Bolsheviks weren't aimed at Karl Kautsky the "Pope of Marxism" of the 1900s, but Karl Kautsky the Renegade, who become a turncloak and a renegade in the 1910s.

[Nihilist Scud Missile]

^^^


Yes he did. The original "vanguard party" was the pre-war SPD, of which Kautsky was the leading theorist. The "vanguard" party is by definition a mass-party. Lenin and the rest of the Bolsheviks consider Kautsky's SPD the flagship of international Social-Democracy and Marxism, and tried to emulate the SPD model, as appropriate in Russia.

Until the end of his days, Lenin pretty much remained a Kautskyist. The polemics of the Bolsheviks weren't aimed at Karl Kautsky the "Pope of Marxism" of the 1900s, but Karl Kautsky the Renegade, who become a turncloak and a renegade in the 1910s.

Ugh, no. He was the biggest critic of Lenin and the Russian Bolsheviks. You wouldn't happen to be a Leninist? Stupid question. My links don't work so I'll repost my prior post later when I can post links that pretty much make your post look like some strange Leninist propaganda.

[Questionable]

Ugh, no. He was the biggest critic of Lenin and the Russian Bolsheviks. You wouldn't happen to be a Leninist? Stupid question. My links don't work so I'll repost my prior post later when I can post links that pretty much make your post look like some strange Leninist propaganda.

From the pages of Neue Ziet:

“Many of our revisionist critics believe that Marx asserted that economic development and the class struggle create, not only the conditions for socialist production, but also, and directly, the consciousness [K. K.’s italics] of its necessity. And these critics assert that England, the country most highly developed capitalistically, is more remote than any other from this consciousness Judging by the draft, one might assume that this allegedly orthodox Marxist view, which is thus refuted, was shared by the committee that drafted the Austrian programme. In the draft programme it is stated: ‘The more capitalist development increases the numbers of the proletariat, the more the proletariat is compelled and becomes fit to fight against capitalism. The proletariat becomes conscious of the possibility and of the necessity for socialism.’ In this connection socialist consciousness appears to be a necessary and direct result of the proletarian class struggle. But this is absolutely untrue. Of course, socialism, as a doctrine, has its roots in modern economic relationships just as the class struggle of the proletariat has, and, like the latter, emerges from the struggle against the capitalist-created poverty and misery of the masses. But socialism and the class struggle arise side by side and not one out of the other; each arises under different conditions. Modern socialist consciousness can arise only on the basis of profound scientific knowledge. Indeed, modern economic science is as much a condition for socialist production as, say, modern technology, and the proletariat can create neither the one nor the other, no matter how much it may desire to do so; both arise out of the modern social process. The vehicle of science is not the proletariat, but the bourgeois intelligentsia [K. K.’s italics]: it was in the minds of individual members of this stratum that modern socialism originated, and it was they who communicated it to the more intellectually developed proletarians who, in their turn, introduce it into the proletarian class struggle where conditions allow that to be done. Thus, socialist consciousness is something introduced into the proletarian class struggle from without [von Aussen Hineingetragenes] and not something that arose within it spontaneously [urwüchsig]. Accordingly, the old Hainfeld programme quite rightly stated that the task of Social-Democracy is to imbue the proletariat (literally: saturate the proletariat) with the consciousness of its position and the consciousness of its task. There would be no need for this if consciousness arose of itself from the class struggle. The new draft copied this proposition from the old programme, and attached it to the proposition mentioned above. But this completely broke the line of thought...”

[l'Enfermé]

Ugh, no. He was the biggest critic of Lenin and the Russian Bolsheviks. You wouldn't happen to be a Leninist? Stupid question. My links don't work so I'll repost my prior post later when I can post links that pretty much make your post look like some strange Leninist propaganda.

Yes, he became a critic of Lenin and the Bolsheviks when he went renegade, abandoned his former Marxist positions, and joined the camp of the social-imperialists and the counter-revolution in the 1910s. Perhaps you should freshen up your history of the German Social-Democracy.

[Nihilist Scud Missile]

From the pages of Neue Ziet:

Yes he thought workers WOULD NOT just all of the suden become socialists via class struggle. Yes his idea of a vangaurd was to educate workers in the most advanced capitalist nations not lead workers in pre mature revoloutions or force populations to socialism in backwards nations as Lenin did in Russia. Kautsky's idea of a vangaurd was much more democratic. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? I never said Kautsky thought workers didn't need a sort of educated class to guide them to proper class consciousness, I said he thought Marx would have not been with Lenin in forcing socialism in Russia but would have agreed with him (Kautsky) that socialists should focus their efforts on workers in the more advanced capitaist nations. I'll chalk that post up as some stange attaempt to prove me wrong on some point. What point was that specifically?

[Nihilist Scud Missile]

Yes, he became a critic of Lenin and the Bolsheviks when he went renegade, abandoned his former Marxist positions, and joined the camp of the social-imperialists and the counter-revolution in the 1910s. Perhaps you should freshen up your history of the German Social-Democracy.

My post without the links will just be framed as my "opinion". Read the information I posted. Copy and paste the links if you must. Anyone who says Kautsky "went renegade" is simply regurgitating Leninist propighanda. I guess this subject requires a great deal of time from me, time and the ability to post links to information that can't be framed as my opinion. When I have those two things, time and the ability to post links to imformation, I'll get back to this thread. Hey mods, why don't my links work?

[Questionable]

Yes he thought workers WOULD NOT just all of the suden become socialists via class struggle. Yes his idea of a vangaurd was to educate workers in the most advanced capitalist nations not lead workers in pre mature revoloutions or force populations to socialism in backwards nations as Lenin did in Russia. Kautsky's idea of a vangaurd was much more democratic. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?

So the basis of your way of thinking is where the errors come from. Where is this opinion about Kautsky's theory being more democratic coming from? I'd also like to ask about how you think Lenin failed to live up to this, but since you've proven yourself to be an exceptionally unpleasant person already you're probably just going to kick and scream about "premature revolutions" rather than engage in any real discourse. I'll still put the question out there though.

[Questionable]

My post without the links will just be framed as my "opinion". Read the information I posted. Copy and paste the links if you must. Anyone who says Kautsky "went renegade" is simply regurgitating Leninist propighanda. I guess this subject requires a great deal of time from me, time and the ability to post links to information that can't be framed as my opinion. When I have those two things, time and the ability to post links to imformation, I'll get back to this thread. Hey mods, why don't my links work?

So you're okay with Kautsky siding with the German imperialists to "protect the workers' movement"? Why is this Leninist propaganda? Are you saying it's untrue? Please back your statements up with facts, don't just call people Leninists and then leave.

Your links probably don't work because your karma is in the negative. I suggest you just copy and paste what you want us to see.

[l'Enfermé]

My post without the links will just be framed as my "opinion". Read the information I posted. Copy and paste the links if you must. Anyone who says Kautsky "went renegade" is simply regurgitating Leninist propighanda. I guess this subject requires a great deal of time from me, time and the ability to post links to information that can't be framed as my opinion. When I have those two things, time and the ability to post links to imformation, I'll get back to this thread. Hey mods, why don't my links work?

Hmm so Rosa Luxemburg is a Leninist because she wrote that in 1914, Kautsky revised the Communist Manifesto to say "proletarians of all countries, unite in peace-time and cut each other’s throats in war!"? instead of "proletarians of all countries, unite!"? Kautsky going renegade is not a view held exclusively by Lenin and the Bolsheviks but one held by the German Communists also. Was the entire KPD and the left-wing of the USPD composed of Leninists?

[Q]

Yes he thought workers WOULD NOT just all of the suden become socialists via class struggle. Yes his idea of a vangaurd was to educate workers in the most advanced capitalist nations not lead workers in pre mature revoloutions or force populations to socialism in backwards nations as Lenin did in Russia.

Since you've evidently never heard of the "wager thesis", it might be best to bring you up to speed:
- VI Lenin and the influence of Kautsky
- Lenin, Kautsky, and 1914
- The four wagers of Lenin in 1917

The Lenin-Kautsky relationship is more complicated than you may think. You seem to make the opposite error that all "Leninists" are making in throwing away Lenin.

So you're okay with Kautsky siding with the German imperialists to "protect the workers' movement"?

To be fair, Kautsky had a big fucking point there. If Tsarist Russia had won the war, it would have meant devastation for the German workers movement and potentially losing decades of work.

The irony is just that his collapse to the right lead to exactly what he feared, a collapse of institutional Marxism, be it that the result was - at least partially - of his own making instead of the Tsarist bulwark of reaction.

And I'm siding with Lenin on this divide, as the true heir of what Kautsky stood for pre-1914 (actually, pre-1909). But then the double irony is that most of the "Leninists" understand nothing of what Lenin was on about.

[Die Neue Zeit]

To be fair, Kautsky had a big fucking point there. If Tsarist Russia had won the war, it would have meant devastation for the German workers movement and potentially losing decades of work.

The irony is just that his collapse to the right lead to exactly what he feared, a collapse of institutional Marxism, be it that the result was - at least partially - of his own making instead of the Tsarist bulwark of reaction.

And I'm siding with Lenin on this divide, as the true heir of what Kautsky stood for pre-1914 (actually, pre-1909). But then the double irony is that most of the "Leninists" understand nothing of what Lenin was on about.

I think we have a Menshevik sympathizer in this thread.

The OP would be wise to look up what Kautsky the Marxist wrote about what constitutes an actual revolutionary period. When Engels sided with a hypothetical German side in a conflict against Russia, it was because the German situation was not yet a revolutionary period.

[Grenzer]

My post without the links will just be framed as my "opinion". Read the information I posted. Copy and paste the links if you must. Anyone who says Kautsky "went renegade" is simply regurgitating Leninist propighanda.

lol, this is a joke. Actually the standard Leninist view of Kautsky is a revisionist one. Generally Leninists(though not all of them) see Kautsky as being worthless from beginning to end. In fact it's fairly common for them to portray Lenin as being on the left-wing of the Second International along with Luxemburg, which is ridiculous and has no basis in fact.

There is nothing ridiculous about the idea that at one point, a person can have sound politics, and years later renege on them entirely. Case in point is Stalin. Very few Marxists should have much issue with his work, Anarchism or Socialism, despite it not being particularly well written. However, it is undeniable that years later Stalin became one of the biggest renegades from Marxism history has ever seen pioneering the grossest violations of Marxist norms since Bernstein.

Q is also quite right. Leninism has little to do with the pre-October politics of Lenin, but is instead a political doctrine composed by the bureaucrats in Moscow during the 1920's.

[Art Vandelay]

Sorry just to pop in to say this, cause I'm not really adding much (and haven't been to any topic lately) but we got some great posters in this thread (some of the best on the entire boards) and I hope that NSM reads up before he regurgitates anymore rhetoric.

[l'Enfermé]

I feel really stupid for this, but I must admit that until this thread, I thought the proper verb form of "renegade" is "renegade", not "renege", as in, Kautsky renegaded and not Kautsky reneged. I blame spellcheck, it didn't find any faults with my posts in the past when I wrote "renegaded".

[newdayrising]

There's this classic text criticizing Kautsky by Paul Mattick.
I still can't post links, but go to Marxists.org and search for "Kautsky, from Marx To Hitler".
I don't agree necessarily with much of what Mattick wrote otherwise but this text is very interesting and illustrates Kautsky's betrayal of the revolutionary movement.

[Nihilist Scud Missile]

Who was Kautsky? So far I've only found that he was some sort of social democrat who turned opportunist (?) during the later days of his life, and that his earlier works are in-depth and revolve around a so called "worker's movement".

Would anyone be able to send me in the direction of Kautsky's more important works, along with explaining what exactly the 'worker's movement' was?

OP, start here, read all of it.

http://www.socialisteducation.org/KKautsky.html#success

As I said Kautsky wasn't perfect but all too many Marxists throw the baby out with the bath water. The thing that attracts me to his works was his ability to predict the failure of Russian "socialism", his ability to predict the shiftyness in store - the authoritarian nature of the Russian Bolsheviks. His works can be as sort of mine field with a few very large land mines but also some very large diamonds of wisdom, if people would have listened to his warnings concerning Russia I think there would have been a better chance of actual socialism taking hold in Europe (Leninists aren't going to like this opinion).

Basically with Kautsky you need to start out by sifting through his "debate" or split with Lenin. This wasn't necessarily a split with Marxist theory proper but there are some inexcusable positions he had, as I said in my first post, he was no "perfect' Marxist and much of his dislike for the Russian experiment led him to even more questionable positions but taken in context, something most Leninists refuse to do, his positions have a sort of explanation.

Most important, in my opinion, are his works surrounding historical materialism and democracy. Those are the two things that attract me to Kautsky's works NOT his war time political positions.

All too many people in the Marxist tradition 'people worship'. Kautsky isnt to be worshiped, no statues of him should be made, no dead embalmed body on display, no cities should be named after him. Nothing. What should be done with Kautsky? An objective look at his whole body of works without the taint of Lenin's attacks or a magnifier glass on Kautsky's mistakes.

Leninists on this forum will pretty much tote the Leninist line and throw the baby out with the bath water which, in my opinion, cost humanity a lot of grief in the Russian "arena" of so called socialism.

[Nihilist Scud Missile]

Sorry just to pop in to say this, cause I'm not really adding much (and haven't been to any topic lately) but we got some great posters in this thread (some of the best on the entire boards) and I hope that NSM reads up before he regurgitates anymore rhetoric.

Ya, Leninists. I think I'm the only person in this thread who's actually read Kautsky's entire body of works so the Leninist line of "renegade" sounds kinda silly to me. I agree with Kautsky in his harsh critique of Russian Bolshevism and his views on democracy and historical materialism. Nothing more nothing less.

Minus reputation for this post. Trolling. Wow.