Spain crisis fuels Catalan separatist sentiment

[l'Enfermé]

Do Asturians, Basques, Castilians, Galician, Leonese, Valencians, Andalusians, Aragonese, Cantabrians, Canarians and Extremadurans get to carve their own countries out of Spain too? Hahahahhaaha. Catalonian nationalism is a petty-bourgeoisie joke. Oh look at us we're Catalonians we're so much more cultured and civilized than the barbarians in the others parts of Spain, we should have our own country, being associated with the rest of Spanish is making is dirty bawwwwww.

[Pravda]

Any separatist movement today in Europe is reactionary.
But, this is probably some bourgeois populist shit, like "we are not guilty for the crisis, the rest of Spain is living of Catalan backs" etc. Similar petite nationalist phrases were told by liberals in former Yugoslavia ("Croatia works, Belgrade is built").

Of course it would be useful if any Spanish comrade would give us first hand info.

[Tim Cornelis]

+ YouTube Video

Summary: Andalusian people are savages, lawless, and uncivilised sub-humans.

Quote by Jordi Pujol i Soley, former 'president of Catalonia.'

[Bakunin Knight]

In my opinion any challenge to the statist centralization of power and towards decentralization is a step in the right direction, especially in such a corporativist environment as the EU.

[Tim Cornelis]

In my opinion any challenge to the statist centralization of power and towards decentralization is a step in the right direction, especially in such a corporativist environment as the EU.

It's not decentralisation, it's localisation of centralised authority. Do you support white separatism as well? After all, it's also "decentralisation" and hardly qualitatively worse than other forms of nationalism and separatism.

[SEKT]

I also recommend this recet poll all over Spain (is in spanish) to check how the trust in the bi-party PSOE-PP is going to hell. For instance, the poll shows that 84.5% distrust right wing president Rajoy, 84.7% distrust leader of socialdemocratic opposition Rubalcaba.



http://datos.cis.es/pdf/Es2960mar_A.pdf

[Crux]

It's not decentralisation, it's localisation of centralised authority. Do you support white separatism as well? After all, it's also "decentralisation" and hardly qualitatively worse than other forms of nationalism and separatism.

Except it totally is. I, and my comrades on the ground, reckon that the surge in Catalan separatism is a result of anger against the madrid governments policy of austerity and the result of local bourgeoisie nationalists who are trying to deflect blame from themselves. See, it has a dual content.

White nationalism on the other hand is reactionary and racist by concept.

[Anarchocommunaltoad]

Seeing as most european separatists still wish to remain in the EU, this is merely the inevitable shift towards limited regional autonomy all of Europe will undergo. A strengthened EU with actual public representation must mean a weakening of the individual member states.

[Bakunin Knight]

It's not decentralisation, it's localisation of centralised authority.

Well, it's still decentralization since power is split away from a central source. Local authorities are much more constrained in their resources, are less powerful, and are therefore more easily overthrown. 'Divide and Conquer'

Do you support white separatism as well? After all, it's also "decentralisation" and hardly qualitatively worse than other forms of nationalism and separatism.

No, I was talking about decentralization with all other things being equal. Decentralization can either be progressive, reactionary, or have little change either way. Those in the first and last cases are welcome since even if there is simply the status quo on a smaller scale, the overarching power of the former political unit is weakened. But even so, I see progressive elements in Catalan separatism.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Do Asturians, Basques, Castilians, Galician, Leonese, Valencians, Andalusians, Aragonese, Cantabrians, Canarians and Extremadurans get to carve their own countries out of Spain too?

Portugal did it in 1139!

[Crux]

Do Asturians, Basques, Castilians, Galician, Leonese, Valencians, Andalusians, Aragonese, Cantabrians, Canarians and Extremadurans get to carve their own countries out of Spain too?

Yes. Down with españolismo. For a longer more nuanced approach see the article I linked before.

[Yazman]

It's not decentralisation, it's localisation of centralised authority. Do you support white separatism as well? After all, it's also "decentralisation" and hardly qualitatively worse than other forms of nationalism and separatism.

That's wrong. There's no such thing as a "white culture". Catalan people have their own culture complete with its own language, traditional values, social & political systems, etc. I'm not necessarily supportive of this movement but to compare racist ideology to this is an absurd comparison. Catalan culture is not an imaginary construct of fascists or racists. It is a real thing.

[robbo203]

That's wrong. There's no such thing as a "white culture". Catalan people have their own culture complete with its own language, traditional values, social & political systems, etc. I'm not necessarily supportive of this movement but to compare racist ideology to this is an absurd comparison. Catalan culture is not an imaginary construct of fascists or racists. It is a real thing.

But, as per our discussion on the other thread, "culture" is one thing , nationalism is quite another. Nationalism prostitutes, abuses, distorts and even obliterates cultures to serve its own end which is fundamentally a capitalist end and is inextricably linked to concept of the nation state - a bourgeois fantasy in which workers hold hands with capitalists to proclaim jointly and proudly "we are one people". The hell we are.

The best way to preserve culture and cultural diversity is to oppose nationalism which has historicaly been a force for cultural homogenisation . Like I said earlier, culture should be a living breathing organic thing that adapts and grows and develops and does not regard other cultures as antithetical to it but on the contrary a source for potential cross fertilisation. In the same way that biodiversity is good for all, so too is cultural diversity.

Nationalism kills diversity and deep freezes for all time its mainly invented national culture, turns culture into fetishised object of religious devotion. So called national cultures relate to other cultures with suspicion and hostility and this is connected to their role and purpose in relation to the nation state - to afford the nation state a sense of common identity and a motivating myth to bind its subjects . Since the nation state is the basic territorial unit of capitalism par excellance it is little wonder that national cultures should exhibit the kind of competitve hostile attitudes towards others that they do

It is not just the Basques and the Catalans that seek independence or self government in Spain. Here in Andalucia there is also a separatist movement of sorts and there is an Andalucian political party - Partido Andalucista - though it is relatively insignificant. Historically of course Al-Andalus encompassed a territory vastly larger than the present day region of Andalucia. No doubt, should Andalucian separatists get their way we can expect a war of words if not a war of deeds to break out over disputed territory, I guess.

[Yazman]

But, as per our discussion on the other thread, "culture" is one thing , nationalism is quite another. Nationalism prostitutes, abuses, distorts and even obliterates cultures to serve its own end which is fundamentally a capitalist end and is inextricably linked to concept of the nation state - a bourgeois fantasy in which workers hold hands with capitalists to proclaim jointly and proudly "we are one people". The hell we are.

The best way to preserve culture and cultural diversity is to oppose nationalism which has historicaly been a force for cultural homogenisation . Like I said earlier, culture should be a living breathing organic thing that adapts and grows and develops and does not regard other cultures as antithetical to it but on the contrary a source for potential cross fertilisation. In the same way that biodiversity is good for all, so too is cultural diversity.

Nationalism kills diversity and deep freezes for all time its mainly invented national culture, turns culture into fetishised object of religious devotion. So called national cultures relate to other cultures with suspicion and hostility and this is connected to their role and purpose in relation to the nation state - to afford the nation state a sense of common identity and a motivating myth to bind its subjects . Since the nation state is the basic territorial unit of capitalism par excellance it is little wonder that national cultures should exhibit the kind of competitve hostile attitudes towards others that they do

It is not just the Basques and the Catalans that seek independence or self government in Spain. Here in Andalucia there is also a separatist movement of sorts and there is an Andalucian political party - Partido Andalucista - though it is relatively insignificant. Historically of course Al-Andalus encompassed a territory vastly larger than the present day region of Andalucia. No doubt, should Andalucian separatists get their way we can expect a war of words if not a war of deeds to break out over disputed territory, I guess.

I'm glad to see you're actually including culture in your analysis. I completely agree. I get sick of revolutionary leftists ignoring it - it only helps nationalists when we do that. For those in the Catalan separatist movement who feel their culture is being marginalised, what you put forward is just what I agree with as a good alternative - state that we as revolutionary leftists see the value in protecting other cultures & helping them to flourish and prosper without having to resort to homogenising nation-states.

We just have to remember to address this and make sure that we don't forget the importance of culture. I think it's worth making sure that different cultures get their recognition & protection within the framework of a post-capitalist society, and without having to resort to nationalist ideas or nation-states in order for different cultures to co-exist, flourish and develop going into the future.

I also think it's worth remembering that if you're going to oppose separatist movements you have to make it clear that as a revolutionary leftist you do not support the 'parent state' so to speak. For example, when presenting your case for the Catalan people and their culture as remaining & flourishing as part of a vibrant anti-capitalist workers movement, it's worth reinforcing that while you may not necessarily support the creation of a Catalan state, at the same time you don't really support the existence of Spain itself either.

[robbo203]

I'm glad to see you're actually including culture in your analysis. I completely agree. I get sick of revolutionary leftists ignoring it - it only helps nationalists when we do that. For those in the Catalan separatist movement who feel their culture is being marginalised, what you put forward is just what I agree with as a good alternative - state that we as revolutionary leftists see the value in protecting other cultures & helping them to flourish and prosper without having to resort to homogenising nation-states.

We just have to remember to address this and make sure that we don't forget the importance of culture. I think it's worth making sure that different cultures get their recognition & protection within the framework of a post-capitalist society, and without having to resort to nationalist ideas or nation-states in order for different cultures to co-exist, flourish and develop going into the future.

I also think it's worth remembering that if you're going to oppose separatist movements you have to make it clear that as a revolutionary leftist you do not support the 'parent state' so to speak. For example, when presenting your case for the Catalan people and their culture as remaining & flourishing as part of a vibrant anti-capitalist workers movement, it's worth reinforcing that while you may not necessarily support the creation of a Catalan state, at the same time you don't really support the existence of Spain itself either.

Absolutely. I couldnt agree more. Opposing one expression of nationalism means opposing the lot of them. If that is not stated explicitly it is certainly ought to be obvious. As I said in the other thread, opposing Scottish nationalism does not in any sense meaning condoning English rule or rule from Westminster. Its the very notion of a state itself that does such ruling that is objectionable. Its not the "scottishness" of the nationalism in question that is the problem but rather the fact that it is nationalist and that applies to all nationalisms .

Nationalism is inextricably linked to the idea of the nation state and that , in turn, implies and is bound up with the existence of capitalism. Anyone who takes up a nationalist position thus inadvertently helps perpetuate the latter