Thread: Are we too many?

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  1. #41
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    I love urban life. I love urbanism. I love big cities like Tokyo and New York City. However, Human civilization itself is destructive. We destroy nature to make room for ourselves, point blank. Therefore, no matter what, humans are posioning this planet. The only thing we could do is reduce the effects of it and there are many good ideas here on this thread. Anyway, here's an interesting article on population growth: The Numbers Game
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  2. #42
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    Do you perchance MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr, think that humans are the highest form of life? That alians don&#39;t exist? That a faster then light drive will be invented sooner or later? That we can colonise the stars?
    We arn&#39;t the highest form of life, alians probably exist, faster then light drives are SF and likely to remain that way, and that means we can&#39;t set up colonies on others stars that can comunicate in less then 4 years. And any colony will be effectivly cut off from the mother planet.
  3. #43
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    [/QUOTE]
    Do you perchance MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr, think that humans are the highest form of life?
    I believe intelligent beings are the highest form of life. They don&#39;t have to be human.

    That alians don&#39;t exist?
    I believe aliens exist.

    That a faster then light drive will be invented sooner or later?
    Later rather than sooner. but the fact that it is &#39;faster than light&#39; will be what&#39;s known as a &#39;lie-to-children&#39; - a gross oversimplification of what&#39;s really happening. It may not be traveling faster than light in this universe, but it will appear to be so.
    Don&#39;t forget that wormholes are a form of faster than light travel, but it ISN&#39;T faster than light, if you get my meaning.

    That we can colonise the stars?
    Well, not the stars themselves of course, but certainly the bodies orbiting them.

    And any colony will be effectivly cut off from the mother planet.
    At least if they attempt to communicate using conventional means. If FTL/Wormhole technology is available, they simply bundle all their messages in a pod and send it on the warp/wormhole/whatever.
    Apart from sending and recieving, comms will be almost instantaneous.
    Their&#39;s even the possibility of sending a radio wave straight through an open wormhole.
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  4. #44
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    Lets cut the star wars crap and talk sence here. We don&#39;t need any FTL or anything else to colonize everywhere, and I&#39;m not saying human beings are superior to all other life including aliens, its just they have more potential then say...a tree. A tree isn&#39;t going to make a space colonies to propagate the universe anytime soon. As far as aliens go, we can cross that bridge when we get to it, if we get to it.
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  5. #45
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    Thanks peaccenicked for the article on Malthus. Some cappies i know were using him as a source to say socialism is wrong because it attempts to prevent famines and wars and therfore people don&#39;t die as much, which in turn causes a huge population problem. (its really sicking they learned this in a unversity political course and yet have never read Marx. Seems like universities are just propaganda machines).

    Anyways i found a good article debunking Malthus&#39;s view on over population further, here it is:

    The Final Defeat of Thomas Malthus?
    Project Syndicate ^ | March 2003 | J. Bradford DeLong

    The UN recently revised its population projections. Some 6.3 billion
    people now live on Earth. If fertility rates in relatively poor
    countries continue to follow the trends set by today&#39;s relatively rich
    countries, we are within shouting distance of the world&#39;s maximum
    population-9-10 billion-to be reached in 2050-2100. But population may
    well decline thereafter. Literate, well-educated women with many
    social and economic options in today&#39;s rich countries have pulled
    fertility below the natural replacement rate. The problem is not that
    such women on average want fewer than two children; in fact, on
    average they wish to have a bit more than two. But because many of
    them delay childbearing until their thirties, actual fertility falls
    short of what they desire.

    A world population that peaks at 9-10 billion is not one in which we
    have to worry about Parson Malthus, the English 19th century economist
    who prophesied a future in which people multiply faster than the
    resources needed to sustain them and hence starve to death by the
    millions. Indeed, it comes as somewhat of a shock to realize that the
    age of the population explosion may be coming to an end.

    Just thirty years ago, people like Stanford University&#39;s Paul Ehrlich
    were telling us that the Malthusian Angel of Death was at the door.
    They assured us that it was too late to stop the famines that would
    kill hundreds of millions in the Indian subcontinent, and that
    humanity&#39;s destiny in the 21st century was one of war and struggle for
    the resources to feed national populations an extra crust of bread.
    Today, however, the political flashpoint over food is not that there
    is too little, but that there is too much. Developing-country
    politicians and populations complain bitterly that the rich industrial
    countries are growing too much food. "Exporting food is one of the few
    ways we can earn the foreign exchange we need to buy modern industrial
    technology," they say. "But your agricultural subsidy programs block
    us from establishing any sort of comparative advantage in most
    agricultural products. You say free trade is good in those
    manufactures that you export-you say that enforcing property rights is
    critically important for your investors-but somehow you go deaf when
    the topic turns to a level playing field in agricultural trade..."

    They are right. Not every developing country can grow rich by making
    and exporting computer chips, or plastic toys, or bananas. Some need
    to export steel. Others will have to export furniture or textiles.
    Still others will have to export citrus, grains, processed foods, etc.
    Yet there has been little forward motion in opening up world trade for
    nearly a decade. Given the complexion of the US Democratic Party&#39;s key
    constituencies, this is not surprising. On the contrary, what is
    surprising is that President Clinton was so willing to swim against
    the tide generated by his own labor/protectionist base in 1993 and
    1994 and establish NAFTA and the WTO. It is also very surprising that
    the post-2000 Republican administration of George W. Bush has been so
    hostile to freer trade. Indeed, Bush has backed several major
    anti-liberal initiatives: a steel tariff, the expansion of
    agricultural subsidies, and a declaration that FTAA [Free Trade
    Agreement of the Americas] negotiations cannot even consider the
    impact of US agricultural subsidy programs on trade.

    Blockages to world trade jeopardize global economic development.
    Technology transfer is incredibly difficult. It may well turn out that
    &#036;4 worth of aid are a poor substitute for even &#036;1 worth of exports,
    because there are few better schools in which to internalize the
    organizational forms and technologies built since the start of the
    Industrial Revolution than the school of exporting.

    If global development is at risk, then so is the final defeat of
    Malthus. If the poorest countries stay poor, their rates of population
    growth might fall much more slowly than the United Nations predicts.
    Falling birthrates depend on a rise in the status of women, confidence
    in public health, growing prosperity, and strong cultural cues to
    convince people that there are other, better indicators of success
    than a large family. The fact that most countries are completing the
    demographic transition does not guarantee that all will. Perhaps
    Malthus will rule again, in geographically small but densely populated
    and immensely poor parts of the globe.

    The world&#39;s high- and middle-income countries should not imagine that
    the relatively rich can fence themselves off indefinitely from poverty
    and misery in the poorest countries. Nationalism has long been a
    powerful cause of political violence. Nothing is more likely to
    strengthen nationalism and turn it to violence than a sense that one&#39;s
    own homeland is being exploited-kept poor and powerless-by other
    nations to satisfy their own selfish interests. The world today is too
    small for any of us to be able to afford for any corner of it to be
    left out of the conquest of Malthusianism.

    J. Bradford DeLong is Professor of economics at the University of
    California at Berkeley, and a former Assistant US Treasury Secretary.



    Here&#39;s another intresting one, but i wasn&#39;t sure if i should post it or not because they did not back up their idea&#39;s.

    Thomas Malthus predicted the world&#39;s carrying capacity was something less than 100 million. I was taught that he was so brilliant in high school, but I was shocked that no one asked why our world was sustaining 6 billion.

    The essential assumption of the theory of natural selection holds that there is a fierce struggle for survival in nature, and every living thing cares only for itself. At the time Darwin proposed this theory, the ideas of Thomas Malthus, the British classical economist, were an important influence on him. Malthus maintained that human beings were inevitably in a constant struggle for survival, basing his views on the fact that population, and hence the need for food resources, increases geometrically, while food resources themselves increase only arithmetically. The result is that population size is inevitably
    checked by factors in the environment, such as hunger and disease. Darwin adapted Malthus&#39;s vision of a fierce struggle for survival among human beings to nature at large, and claimed that "natural selection" is a consequence of this struggle.

    Further research, however, revealed that there was no struggle for life in nature as Darwin had postulated. As a result of extensive research into animal groups in the 1960s and 1970s, V. C. Wynne-Edwards, a British zoologist, concluded that living things balance their population in an interesting way, which prevents competition for food. Animal groups were simply managing their population on the basis of their food resources. Population was regulated not by elimination of the weak through factors like epidemics or starvation, but by
    instinctive control mechanisms. In other words, animals controlled their numbers not by fierce competition, as Darwin suggested, but by limiting reproduction.

    Even plants exhibited examples of population control, which invalidated
    Darwin&#39;s suggestion of selection by means of competition. The botanist A. D. Bradshaw&#39;s observations indicated that during reproduction, plants behaved according to the "density" of the planting, and limited their reproduction if the area was highly populated with plants.9 On the other hand, examples of sacrifice observed in animals such as ants and bees display a model completely opposed to the Darwinist struggle for survival.

    In recent years, research has revealed findings regarding self-sacrifice even in bacteria. These living things without brains or nervous systems, totally devoid of any capacity for thought, kill themselves to save other bacteria when they are invaded by viruses.

    These examples surely invalidate the basic assumption of natural selection-the absolute struggle for survival. It is true that there is competition in nature; however, there are clear models of self-sacrifice and solidarity, as well.
    &quot;I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and voilence and enjoy it to the full&quot; - Leon Trotsky
    &quot;What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?&quot; - Gandhi
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  6. #46
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    Thank you all for the opinions

    Although must say that when I open this topic I was expecting something a little bit different
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  7. #47
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    i think we are with way to many on this earth. 60% of the population is poor and doesnt know what to do with his/her live. we should hepl those people. recruit all of them into a huge communistic army that can help the communisme take over. the people who dont want to help us, killl them with biobombs or, we shall rule&#33;
  8. #48
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    Originally posted by Red Army@Jan 27 2004, 10:31 AM
    i think we are with way to many on this earth. 60% of the population is poor and doesnt know what to do with his/her live. we should hepl those people. recruit all of them into a huge communistic army that can help the communisme take over. the people who dont want to help us, killl them with biobombs or, we shall rule&#33;
    ok
    &quot;I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and voilence and enjoy it to the full&quot; - Leon Trotsky
    &quot;What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?&quot; - Gandhi
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  9. #49
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    We arenot with too many, we just need to share the food and production factors. There is enough food for everyone on this earth, it isn&#39;t just shared equaliy.

    We just should live cleaner, and produce food on enviroment-friendly ways, and that&#39;s possible.
  10. #50
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    The speed of population on a worldwide scale is.. in fact... falling.
    But water, oil and other natural resources are deleting. Ways have to be sorted as to use resources in a more rational way.

    This is one of my favorite speech made in one of the Environmental Summits:

    Tomorrow is Too Late: Development and the Environmental Crisis in the Third World
    By Fidel Castro


    This pamphlet is a speech by President Fidel Castro of Cuba to the 1992 Rio summit on the environment.
    "An important biological species - humankind - is at risk of disappearing due to the rapid and progressive elimination of its natural habitat.

    It must be said that consumer societies are chiefly responsible for this appalling environmental destruction. Third World countries, yesterday&#39;s colonies and today&#39;s nations exploited and plundered by an unjust economic order, cannot be blamed for all this.

    Stop transferring to the Third World lifestyles and consumer habits that ruin the environment. Make human life more rational. Use science to achieve sustainable development without pollution. Pay the ecological debt instead of the foreign debt. Eradicate hunger and not humanity.

    Tomorrow will be too late for what should have been done a long time ago. Gracias" --Fidel Castro
    DOWN WITH JAPANESE IMPERIALISM!
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    The Left needs to spank out a number of armchair theorists and kids who cloak themselves with Marxism as excuse for their problems. Exclusion is needed when the cause is hampered. We are supposed to be the examples and persuaders. Assume responsibility, fuckwit!
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    Link.
  11. #51
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    Originally posted by Red Army@Jan 27 2004, 05:31 AM
    i think we are with way to many on this earth. 60% of the population is poor and doesnt know what to do with his/her live. we should hepl those people. recruit all of them into a huge communistic army that can help the communisme take over. the people who dont want to help us, killl them with biobombs or, we shall rule&#33;
    people, please don&#39;t ban members who post stuff like this

    I had a laugh and a half because of this

    BIOBOMBS&#33;
    Please reinstate me to non-restricted staus. My mailbox is full and I cannot contact anyone for assistence.

    Until my unjustifiable restriction is lifted, I, HAZARD, founder of the GUERRILLA POSTERS and the most widely read poet of this century, can be found at this website.

    http://b4.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?&...ser=seditionary

    THIS IS THE NEW SITE
  12. #52
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    just read that post again...

    don&#39;t it sound like

    ALL YOUR BASS ARE BELONG TO US&#33;
    Please reinstate me to non-restricted staus. My mailbox is full and I cannot contact anyone for assistence.

    Until my unjustifiable restriction is lifted, I, HAZARD, founder of the GUERRILLA POSTERS and the most widely read poet of this century, can be found at this website.

    http://b4.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?&...ser=seditionary

    THIS IS THE NEW SITE
  13. #53
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    If Human population keep increasing will reach a point of caos.

    Dispute for water will increase, (remember that many countries have shared water sources), energy control will be even more important as today, (and we know how many conflits already exist with this reason).
    Each individual itself will fight for survival like it never fought before.

    People living in the citie will suffer more since they are to much dependent on a sistem while people living in the field more safe.
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  14. #54
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    Originally posted by Pepo@Feb 10 2004, 11:16 AM
    If Human population keep increasing will reach a point of caos.

    Dispute for water will increase, (remember that many countries have shared water sources), energy control will be even more important as today, (and we know how many conflits already exist with this reason).
    Each individual itself will fight for survival like it never fought before.

    People living in the citie will suffer more since they are to much dependent on a sistem while people living in the field more safe.
    Thats if there is no control. And its surivivial of the fittest.


    If resources are properly mananged, I don&#39;t think we will have that problem soon.


    On a side note, Its intresting, although we have such a huge population, You can still take everyone in the world and fit them onto the island of Jamica.
    &quot;I can see the bright green strip of grass beneath the wall, and the clear blue sky above the wall, and sunlight everywhere. Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression and voilence and enjoy it to the full&quot; - Leon Trotsky
    &quot;What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?&quot; - Gandhi
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  15. #55
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    Human population as long it will increase it will estimulate increase in Waste production. This has a straight conection with a poll that I put on this site called Waste Reduction.

    It is obvious that as long as there will be so many Humans on Earth we will be slaves of our own planet since resources are the limit for expansion and survival.
    Those who say that we still have plenty of space and we are far form reaching the limits are just people with no idea on Environmental subjects and should use valid information to improve their own knowledge before that give an opinion.

    To the sustainability of all Ecological system we need free place and we must respect the natural law. From the moment we try to change nature into our favor I have lost. (GM food for example).

    Biodiversity must be preserved since it&#39;s probably the most important key to the existance of life amoung us (living things)

    So try to think better and get information before you suport any idea. There is plenty of Internet sites available with valid and recognised information, namely the World Bank, UN, European Envionmental Agency, Local governments, etc...
    For example, the Germans have available many reports for the Environmental ministry that are possible to order and all free. Just give the adress and they send the information.
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  16. #56
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    ALL YOUR BASS ARE BELONG TO US&#33;


    That would be base my friend

    But you made me laugh, so it&#39;s all good
    Adiel: How can you defend a country where 5 percent of the people control 95 percent of the wealth?
    Lisa: I&#39;m defending a country where people can think and act and worship any way they want&#33;
    Adiel: Cannot&#33;
    Lisa: Can to&#33;
    Adiel: Cannot&#33;
    Lisa: Can to&#33;
    Homer: Please, please, kids; stop fighting. Maybe Lisa is right about America being the land of opportunity, maybe Adiel has a point about the machinery of capitalism being oiled with the blood of the workers.
  17. #57
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    things CAN get better if people got smarted and stopped being scared of certain things that are just plain and simple and not as complex as the governmen makes them seem...
    but the way shit&#39;s going right now i don&#39;t think this is going anywhere good...
    look a bear&#33;

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