It's a stupid idea. I'm sure the EDL is going to use this as proof that "islamo-fascism" wants to take over Britain.
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How so? That Islamists generally have beards? No, because that's correct.
Because they are not an army, obviously. That's like asking me why I'm not calling them doctors since they had knives.
Terrorism is the employment of violence against a civilian population. They were allegedly going to use explosives against the EDL, civilians. Hence, would-be terrorists.
Your question implies as if they were not terrorists, and my question of why this wouldn't be terrorism is still not answered.
Incidentally, I've occasionally referred to soldiers as terrorists. So in a way, I did call them soldiers (but not really, actually).
pew pew pew
It's a stupid idea. I'm sure the EDL is going to use this as proof that "islamo-fascism" wants to take over Britain.
Last edited by bad ideas actualised by alcohol; 16th July 2012 at 09:23.
Is this resistance or a costume party?
Either way I think black with bandanas is a boring theme.
fka Creep
Devout Muslim men tend to have beards and your flirtation with a stereotype based on your "personal experience" is on the verge of labelling all Muslims with beards as Islamist Jihadists.
When is an army an army in your book, when a state says it is? And your analogy with surgeons suggests that you have quite a charitable view of what 'soldiering' entails.
OMG and soldiers never do that to civilians!
Not really, I'm just wondering why you are using the term so uncritically. Your first response was to call these men 'Islamist terrorists', practically writing the headline for your local bourgeois newspaper. And the main problem isn't that you label them as 'terrorist', it is that you assume that any Muslim engaging in an act of terror is an Islamist. For all you know they could be a detachment of misguided but nevertheless hot-shot direct-action anti-fascists, who have all suffered at the hands of the EDL and are out for revenge. But you saw the beards and thought of old Bin Laden, didn't you?
Cool, so you realise that these labels carry political rather than objective weight.
Last edited by Hit The North; 11th July 2012 at 08:46.
"Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not." - Rosa Luxemburg
"There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin
An issue of motivation I think, and that's assuming these men were motivated by their religion.. and that's a medium-large if. If the attack was on a synagogue, I'd say there's a good chance of it being an attack of the jihad persuasion. But, considering the anti-goddamneveryone nature of the EDL, I wouldn't quite make such an assumption. I'm glad for what happened regardless.
disclaimer: I'm talking about these 3 specific Mulsims, *not* Muslims in general. No islamophobia intended.
BANS GOT YOU PARANOID? I MADE A GROUP FOR YOU! http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=1349 NOW OPEN FOR EVERYBODY!!!
"Think for yourself; question authority." - Timothy Lenin
The difference is that you assumed that these guys were Islamists on the basis that they were Muslims with beards. There are plenty of Muslims with beards who aren't Islamists. Its the equivalent of your standard suburban closet racist middle class upstanding citizen saying most criminals are black, therefore I'm going to assume that this black guy is a criminal.
“How in the hell could a man enjoy being awakened at 6:30 a.m. by an alarm clock, leap out of bed, dress, force-feed, shit, piss, brush teeth and hair, and fight traffic to get to a place where essentially you made lots of money for somebody else and were asked to be grateful for the opportunity to do so?” Charles Bukowski, Factotum
"In our glorious fight for civil rights, we must guard against being fooled by false slogans, as 'right-to-work.' It provides no 'rights' and no 'works.' Its purpose is to destroy labor unions and the freedom of collective bargaining... We demand this fraud be stopped." MLK
-fka Redbrother
Well what makes it "terrorist" and not a "gang" fight? Why not vigilantism?
So cops randomly pulled some "suspiciously bearded" men over? Why?Originally Posted by BBC
What does "home-made explosive device" mean? What does "improvised explosive" mean? A car-bomb? A molotov cocktail? A aerosol can and a book of matches near-by? A flaming bag of dog-shit?
Originally Posted by BBCA routine stop? Of immigrants or dark-skinned people? A "counter-terrorism" unit just randomly stops people they think might be terrorists on the road? Were counter-terrorism units stopping people for broken tail-lights and they stumbled on some "terrorists"? Or were they fishing for people they could label as terrorists?Originally Posted by BBC
They could have been "terrorists" but I think things don't quite add up the way the cops and BBC want them to seem.
In the US this kind of thing (if my suspicions are correct) is called "the war on drugs" and local police forces get federal money based on the amount of drug-convinctions they get. Anti-gang units are formed and basically sweep up black people and pull people over in "routine traffic stops" where they are then allowed to search vehicles for drugs just because someone didn't have proper registration or a working turn signal. 9 out of 10 times they find nothing, but that one time they find some weed or coke, they book the person. The courts see a bunch of people who were caught with drugs come through the system which creates the impression that cops always get the right person. But it's a self-justifying cycle.
It sounds to me like the UK - or at least this task force - was looking to justify it's anti-terrorism laws and funding.
That being said, yes if these guys wanted to beat up - or terrorize - the EDL, then it is a useless individualist strategy from a working class perspective.
Damn dem durty terrrrorirrstts with their beards and their allah worshiping.
I doubt they were Islamic terrorists. Terrorists in the sense that they were intending to terrorise people, but their motives maybe more against a disgusting organisation that has provoked them.
This is essentially good propaganda for the EDL, and the 3 men fell into the EDL's trap.
Workers-Control-Over-ProdWell - normally porn is distributed to viewers... that happen to masturbate to it.
zeekloid - I watch it for the character development.
I've been stopped a few times randomly.....
Workers-Control-Over-ProdWell - normally porn is distributed to viewers... that happen to masturbate to it.
zeekloid - I watch it for the character development.
By an anti-terrorism unit?!
Oh right, not by an anti-terrorism team. I didn't realise that was the case.By an anti-terrorism unit?!
UK's a police state now, so this doesn't surprise me.
I was once stopped by a team of armed police at an airport because I had a BMX and a BIG bag on me. They asked to check it.
A pedalling suicide bomber potentialee.
Workers-Control-Over-ProdWell - normally porn is distributed to viewers... that happen to masturbate to it.
zeekloid - I watch it for the character development.
This was a sophisticated attempt to target the EDL. These men had access to firearms and other weapongs, along with manufacturing improvised explosive devices. It sounds like terroism to me, and they knew what they were doing. The EDL might be a racist organisation with some extremely nasty individuals, but that doesn't excuse violence.
They aren't the police and shouldn't be taking matters into their own hand. Secretly the EDL will love this incident because it fuels tension in the community and proves there point that England would be better off without Muslims in the country. This way, everyone suffers and that isn't good.
"Every reasonable human being should be a moderate Socialist."
Thomas Mann
uh what
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
In what sense are you a 'Leftwinger'?
"Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not." - Rosa Luxemburg
"There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin
In the military academy thread this same fellow thought that it's a good idea to send poor kids off to military academies so that they can use their aggressive energy "for good".
I don't think we're going to see this guy a lot outside OI in the future
While I don't agree with the post made by Leftwinger, I think we can probably argue against the points made by the new poster before making a judgement about them personally and their whole political worldview.
With two total posts, it's a bit hard to distinguish "new" from "troll" just yet and such judgements won't phase a troll while it could intimidate an actual "raw" new poster.
Not taking matters into own hands? Good luck with your socialist revolution!
Is this resistance or a costume party?
Either way I think black with bandanas is a boring theme.
fka Creep
It doesn't bother me if the males are Muslim. No one should be plotting to attack anyone, even if we are talking about the EDL - a racist, far right extremist group full of uneducated, politically naive skinheads, who fuel violent hatred towards Muslims.
Surely it is left wing to take a disliking towards the EDL, but at the same time call for a stop to any violence and terroism? Is socialism not left wing, just more centre-left, or do posters on here lean more towards the far left? Just trying to find out?
"Every reasonable human being should be a moderate Socialist."
Thomas Mann
Leftwinger, the problem with this incident isn't that the men were taking things into their own hands. The real problem is the other things you mention: the fact that the act would be more likely to split the working class than bring it together; and the inhumane and disproportionate response: the idiots who populate the EDL probably deserve a good kicking but probably don't deserve being carved up with machetes or blown up with bombs.
But from the standpoint of being communist revolutionists, we don't condemn actions on the basis of an appeal to the laws of the capitalist state that we oppose and propose the abolition of. That would be daft.
"Events have their own logic, even when human beings do not." - Rosa Luxemburg
"There are decades when nothing happens; and there are weeks when decades happen." - Lenin
I think men like this give Muslims a bad name and make the public think they are all terrorists, especially when you have the BBC article keen to point this out. This is good propaganda for the EDL.
And yes it isn't good when the working class are split for the communist state that is preached on here. You have the muslims fighting against the EDL, both working class groups. What is wrong with the police? There has to be some law enforcement in this country. I promise you that I'm left wing, isn't socialism part of the whole ideology of a communist revolutionist?
"Every reasonable human being should be a moderate Socialist."
Thomas Mann
its only for the rich, acab
'heavens above, how awful it is to live outside the law - one is always expecting what one rightly deserves.'
petronius, the satyricon
