The irrelevancy of Palestine

[Tukhachevsky]

I know this is a polemic subject, so before replying me I ask you to refrain from ad hominens. And be ready for a wall of text.

I was making a research about indian and south american slums- complexo do alemão in Rio de Janeiro and Dharavi in Mumbai being perfect examples- and how big was my surprise when I compared their populations to Gaza and West Bank, and saw that the palestinian population is way smaller than slum inhabitants. Not only that but Israel territory (20k km²) is smaller than the state of Massachusetts (27k km²).

So I ask you, from where all this anti-israel motivation inside the left comes? Unless all socialists parties and organizations are supposed to indirectly follow Soviet Union geopolitics and soviet opposition to Israel, how the palestinian struggle is more relevant than, let's say, russian occupation of Abkhazia or south Ossetia?

I anticipate some arguments:

-That Israel is a racist or ethnocentric state:
I was surprised in my research to discover that israelis are forbidden to live/travel/visit any muslim country and that during six days war all jews were expelled from muslim countries, being Israel the sole recipient for them. While on the other side, there are many muslims living in Israel, some even inside politics.

-That Israel was "stolen" from the original inhabitants:
Ignoring the problems of this argument, for if it was true all Mexico would belong to Aztecs, and considering that Israel had a jewish community since Ottoman times, how the creation of this state can be a theft if the arab league declared war- rejecting the partition plan and calling for the expulsion of jews- and lost? And by expelling jews from their countries, didn't muslim leaders irreversible validated the creation of Israel? Israel creation seems more like a civil war than a theft.

-That Israel is a western colony in the Middle East. That Israel is a manifestation of Usa imperialism:
And this is the most abstract, emotional, irrational and vague one. And it reeks of scapegoating. Israel is an imperialistic colony, but South Korea, Taiwan, Panama, Falklands, French Guiana, Suriname and etc don't? This brings me back to an earlier point: should all socialist parties or movements follow cold-war soviet geopolitics; specially when it indirectly lends support to religious fanatics organizations like Hezbola and Hamas, the complete opposite of the communist ideology?


Thank you for reading until here. For years I was supportive of Palestine, but now I'm researching that I'm making a paper about demographics I'm seeing things in a complete different light.
So, for socialism, is Palestine so relevant as people try to make?

[campesino]

how do I down rep someone?

[roy]

the conflict between israel and palestine plays a much bigger part in world politics than, as an example you mentioned, abkhazia. it's not that the people living in mumbai's slums are less important than the palestinians, but the conflict's connections to terrorism, the relationship between east and west etc. is going to cause it to be in the limelight a lot more than instances of extreme poverty that occur the world over.

[Tukhachevsky]

the conflict between israel and palestine plays a much bigger part in world politics than, as an example you mentioned, abkhazia. it's not that the people living in mumbai's slums are less important than the palestinians, but the conflict's connections to terrorism, the relationship between east and west etc. is going to cause it to be in the limelight a lot more than instances of extreme poverty that occur the world over.

Indian and brazilian slums have criminal organizations that practice what many countries would call "terrorism", they kidnap people, they threaten, they even put buses on fire.
But I totally agree with you, israeli-arab conflict seems very much a west-east dichotomy, a huge clash of ideology and mentality. Maybe they live in an eternal cold-war? It's funny to see middle east history and how geographical conditions and the lack of natural defenses contributed to eternal instability and the manifestation of localized wars. I bet even without Israel this area would be deep in conflict.

[Book O'Dead]

I know this is a polemic subject, so before replying me I ask you to refrain from ad hominens. And be ready for a wall of text.
[...]
So, for socialism, is Palestine so relevant as people try to make?

I don't know how relevant Palestine and its people are "for socialism" but I do believe that Palestine is relevant to the Palestinian.

Isn't that enough?

[Tukhachevsky]

Isn't that enough?

Every protest march I went in the last 4 years had people waving palestinian flags and were protests totally unrelated with the palestinian cause, i.e. raise of salary of federal teachers, etc.
I had acquaintances lobbing people for boycotts of israeli stores, newspapers less or more incline with the government orientation denigrating Israel, lol even one university colleague made an abstract painting with the title "Israel plans bombing gaza"!
If the palestinian cause is relevant for palestinians I wonder why it is so pushed to non-palestinians.
As I said before the relation between Palestine and any economic, political and social revolution is tenuous at best, and the left leaning towards the palestinian side seems more as a blindly continuation of Soviet Union geopolitics than anything rational.
After studying demographic fluxes in the middle east I felt almost, if I were to do a shitty comparison, as if I was the water in someone else mill, doing the dirty work for a conflict totally unrelated to me (and to socialism as a whole).

Well, another wall of text. I hope the mods understand I'm just rant or relieving and don't ban me.

[Book O'Dead]

After studying demographic fluxes in the middle east I felt almost, if I were to do a shitty comparison, as if I was the water in someone else mill, doing the dirty work for a conflict totally unrelated to me (and to socialism as a whole).

Well, another wall of text. I hope the mods understand I'm just rant or relieving and don't ban me.

So helping to secure the Palestinian people a free and independent homeland is "dirty work"?

I would agree but not in the sense you mean it.

[electrostal]

An independent Palestine would not be some great step towards the victory of world socialism ( or perhaps even bourgeois-democracy and secularism) however the Zionist regime in Israel, that main outpost and fortress of imperialism in the Middle East, should and must be resisted and fought against.

[Tukhachevsky]

So helping to secure the Palestinian people a free and independent homeland is "dirty work"?

In detriment of other people, yes.

[Manic Impressive]

nice OP with some good arguments. You missed out the most important one though, that national liberation struggles only lead to another set of bourgeois being installed to exploit workers.

there's another reason why it continues to be the most important national liberation struggle.

Recent history. For quite a long time it's been a movement allied with insurrectionary left wing groups, whether M-L or anarchist. Groups have gone to Palestine and Syria to get training from arab independence groups. They've received arms and training and been kept in safety by these groups. It's also been a hub for all other national liberation movements ETA or the IRA and plenty of others. It's been a pillar of resistance against the bourgeois of powerful nations. The enemy of my enemy and all that.

It's also part of the DNA of Trotskyist and M-L groups to support national liberation struggles. It's not blindly following the foreign policy of the USSR but it is their tactical decision they think it will bring about world socialism one tin pot dictatorship and state capitalist regime at a time.

[Book O'Dead]

In detriment of other people, yes.

What 'other people'?

And is that a criterion that socialists should use when selecting which liberation struggle to support?

To me, the notion that the struggle of Palestinians against Israel for self-determination is irrelevant or that to support it is harmful to the fight for socialism is a dangerous and repugnant notion.

While I do not argue that the Palestinian struggle is central to the fight for socialism--because it isn't--i believe that socialist are morally obligated to lend critical support to all legitimate struggles for liberation. And history has shown that the Palestinian fight to regain lost territory and to establish their own homeland is as legitimate now as when it first began.

[Rafiq]

For anti imps, the struggle in palestine is the heart of the Arab struggle against colonialism and imperialism, and it's much more focused on, considering the middle east is the sole main interest of the U.S., and Israel seems to be, to them, the manifestation of American interests.

Doesn't mean I support Anti Imperialism that includes class collaboration, though. Especially not the likes of Islamists.

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[Rafiq]

And manic, yes, because of Soviet support, the leading groups in Palestine were secular leftists

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[Positivist]

I support solidarity between Palestinian and Israeli workers, and I do acknowledge that the Zionist eviction of the Palestinian people was unjust, but I also understand the points presented in this op.

If each segment of the global proletariat is equally important, than why is such emphasis placed on Palestinian workers? Manic Impressive raised many good reasons for why this is, and their is also the very real injustice that the Palestinians suffered which illicits sympathy, as well as the fact that Israel is a bastion for imperialism in its region.

You are correct that there are many other imperialist puppets throughout the world, what distinguishes Israel is its location. The Israeli territory lies inbetween Africa, the Middle East and Europe. One of which is a major center of commerce, the other two massive caches of natural resources.

But what Palestinian Nat. Lib. supporters neglect is that, as Manic Impressive noted, the overthrow of the Israeli government and the installment of a Palestinian one will only result the suppression of the workers by a new bourgiose.

[Manic Impressive]

And manic, yes, because of Soviet support, the leading groups in Palestine were secular leftists

Left wing of capital

[Peoples' War]

Left wing of capital

Could be worse. They could be revisionist Kautskyites like the SPGB, eh mate?

[Book O'Dead]

Could be worse. They could be revisionist Kautskyites like the SPGB, eh mate?

Why this gratuitous sectarian dig?

[Deicide]

Does anyone else think the Left has really, really, like realllllyyy, terrible insults?

''WELLL, YO MOMMA WAS.... A KAUTSKYIST REVISIONIST!!!''

[Ocean Seal]

The difference is that Palestine's situation can be changed with a mere lifting of the blockade and tearing down its man made borders. You can't change the situation of the slums with something so simple.

[Book O'Dead]

Does anyone else think the Left has really, really, like realllllyyy, terrible insults?

''WELLL, YO MOMMA WAS.... A KAUTSKYIST REVISIONIST!!!''

I thought that socialists were tasked with finding good reasons to unite, not bad ones to pick a fight.