Feminism and "Beauty" and "Sexuality"

[Eagle_Syr]

This is sort of an offshoot from the Lara Croft thread.

Does feminism mean all concepts of femininity and beauty need to be forgotten?

I have always thought that feminism meant support for female rights and equality in the work place and before the law. But despite our equality, men and women are not the same. We shouldn't be afraid of embracing this fact.

The human body is sexual; it has beauty, and it can be artistically portrayed with ideal forms. Why does feminism mean both men and women cannot be admired aesthetically?

[Luc]

men and women arent that different just sayin'

but to the point i think most feminists critique the harmful and impossible beauty standards(or "ideal forms" as they really arent that ideal...) as they exist currently and also critique objectification

not attacking anyone who has a sexuality

[Quail]

Men and women aren't really that different, but the roles "men" and "women" are meant to take in society are different. Gender roles are socially constructed and it's worth noting that not only are there people who define themselves as male and female who don't identify with traditional roles, there are also many people who exist outside the male/female binary.

The problem with the idealised models of beauty as they exist today is that they're heavily influenced by patriarchal gender roles. For example, the "ideal" man has big, well-defined muscles and is basically a caricature of what is considered "manly" - for example:


The ideas about how women (in particular, but also men to a lesser extent) should look mean that women are told to strive for unattainable bodies. The beauty industry exploits this and gives women insecurities that make them feel they are unattractive without buying their products. Having an idealised version of a "perfect" woman is very harmful in a capitalist society, but I don't think it's particularly healthy in any circumstance. People are all different and nobody will ever live up to an ideal. It's unfair to impose unattainable beauty standards on anybody, and unhealthy (mentally and physically) to strive for the unattainable.

There is nothing about feminism that means that women and men can't both be appreciated aesthetically. I'm a bisexual feminist and I appreciate people who are beautiful - though beauty is subjective, so what I find beautiful others may not and vice-versa (another reason why the idea of an "ideal" person is unhelpful). There is a difference though between admiring someone aesthetically and making them a sexual object. I find that a lot of young men seem to have a sense of entitlement when it comes to women they find attractive. They get offended when they're rejected. They expect women to accept and indulge their advances. This is because of the patriarchal society in which we live, and it's something that needs to change.

[Eagle_Syr]

While it is true that impossible standards cannot ever be attained, it is appropriate if an individual tries their best to look their best; and it is appropriate to admire them aesthetically and sexually.

As far as gender roles go, as long as they are not enforced, I also don't see a problem with them.

[mew]

i think you should try to learn more about feminism... third wave feminism is generally pro-femininity, pro-sex, pro-"beauty", but it also means looking at those things with a critical eye and analyzing how these things have been distorted under patriarchy in a way that is harmful and oppressive to women, and also done for the benefit of men rather than women. And things like how femininity and beauty aren't just "nice," but are an actual mandate for women in society.

[Quail]

While it is true that impossible standards cannot ever be attained, it is appropriate if an individual tries their best to look their best; and it is appropriate to admire them aesthetically and sexually.

What exactly do you mean by this? I personally try to look my best by keeping myself clean and my hair tidy, but if you held me up to the beauty standards promoted by, say, cosmo magazine I'd fall well short. (No make-up? Unshaven underarms? Get that girl a makeover!) Who decides what trying one's best to look their best is exactly?

As far as gender roles go, as long as they are not enforced, I also don't see a problem with them.

The problem is that if gender roles and stereotypes exist, then they are enforced. Nobody lives in a vacuum; we are influenced by our surroundings. If it's the norm for women to do most of the housework and childcare (for example) then heterosexual men will grow up with the expectation that their partner will do most of the domestic labour and women will grow up feeling that it is their duty to do the domestic labour and so it will be hard to make progress. We internalise patriarchal messages all the time, both men and women. We have to examine ourselves and try to unpick a lifetime of social conditioning and it isn't easy.

[revolt]

Having an idealised version of a "perfect" woman is very harmful in a capitalist society, but I don't think it's particularly healthy in any circumstance.

why do you think it's "very harmful" in a capitalist society, but you "don't think it's particularly healthy" in a theoretical non-capitalist society?

would cutting ones leg off with a hatchet be "very dangerous" in a capitalist society, and "possibly have negative effects" in a non-capitalist society?

[Deicide]

The problem with the idealised models of beauty as they exist today is that they're heavily influenced by patriarchal gender roles. For example, the "ideal" man has big, well-defined muscles and is basically a caricature of what is considered "manly" - for example:

That guy is hardly that muscly, he's at a realistic stage most men should aim at, 9% or 10% body fat, purely for the health reasons.

This is muscly. And a caricature of ''manliness''.

[Quail]

why do you think it's "very harmful" in a capitalist society, but you "don't think it's particularly healthy" in a theoretical non-capitalist society?

would cutting ones leg off with a hatchet be "very dangerous" in a capitalist society, and "possibly have negative effects" in a non-capitalist society?

It's especially harmful in a capitalist society because the beauty industry takes these unattainable ideals and exploits our insecurities to sell their products; in a hypothetical communist society this exploitation wouldn't happen because there would be no beauty industry.

[Quail]

That guy is hardly that muscly, he's at a stage most men should aim at, imo, purely for the health reasons.

Men's Health tends to have airbrushed muscly men on the cover and that was the first picture on google images. Some other examples:


Those abs just don't look real. IMO it's just as bad as Cosmo for promoting unattainable body shapes.

[Luc]

Men's Health tends to have airbrushed muscly men on the cover and that was the first picture on google images.


IMO it's just as bad as Cosmo for promoting unattainable body shapes.

edit: ah nvm they are diffferent

also i agree with Quail... i think actually those abs are impossible to get cause it would require a seriously low body fat thats really unrealistic so a guy could be a big as that but not as "chiseld"

[revolt]

It's especially harmful in a capitalist society because the beauty industry takes these unattainable ideals and exploits our insecurities to sell their products; in a hypothetical communist society this exploitation wouldn't happen because there would be no beauty industry.

the economic system in which people attain beauty products doesn't effect the physical and mental health issues surrounding the concept of a perfect women.

you said that having an idealized vision of a perfect women is very harmful in a capitalist society specifically. is having an idealized vision of a perfect woman in a non-capitalist society less harmful?

[Deicide]

The first picture you linked is nothing special and is not unrealistic. Such a body can attained by pretty much anyone willing to workout and eat properly for 1 - 3 years. Although I bet it has been photoshopped to make him appear more ripped.

Look at this guys abs, now these are only attainable with lucky genetics and steroids, but also by working out and eating properly. It's an unrealistic example for most people to achieve. But damn, he looks good.

[Quail]

the economic system in which people attain beauty products doesn't effect the physical and mental health issues surrounding the concept of a perfect women.

you said that having an idealized vision of a perfect women is very harmful in a capitalist society specifically. is having an idealized vision of a perfect woman in a non-capitalist society less harmful?

I just explained why I think it's more harmful, because the beauty industry uses the idealised "perfect" person to manipulate people into buying their products, and so it is in their interests to maintain and amplify people's insecurities.

In a hypothetical communist society, the beauty industry wouldn't exist, and it wouldn't be in the interests of the general population to make ourselves as miserable as possible about our bodies and then produce a shitload of useless products to "fix" ourselves.

[revolt]

I just explained why I think it's more harmful, because the beauty industry uses the idealised "perfect" person to manipulate people into buying their products, and so it is in their interests to maintain and amplify people's insecurities. In a hypothetical communist society, the beauty industry wouldn't exist, and it wouldn't be in the interests of the general population to make ourselves as miserable as possible about our bodies and then produce a shitload of useless products to "fix" ourselves.

so you're saying there would not be an idealized vision of a perfect woman. that is much different from saying that an idealized vision of a perfect woman would be less harmful in itself in a non-capitalist society.

[Quail]

The first picture you linked is nothing special and is not unrealistic. Such a body can attained by pretty much anyone willing to workout and eat properly for 1 - 3 years.

The specific picture I posted isn't really the point, to be honest, and arguing over that distracts from the actual debate.

Also, for a lot of men who don't have time to live in the gym (you know, if they have jobs, families or whatever) extremely well built and defined muscles are effectively unattainable.

[Quail]

so you're saying there would not be an idealized vision of a perfect woman. that is much different from saying that an idealized vision of a perfect woman would be less harmful in itself in a non-capitalist society.

There wouldn't really be a purpose for the endless promotion of an unattainable idealised body.

However if there was, there would be no beauty industry to exploit our insecurities and make it more of a problem.

It's always unhealthy to chase an unattainable ideal - I already said that. However, I think that the beauty industry contributes to the problem because it serves their interests - they make their profit by promoting an unattainable ideal, by telling people that they're ugly unless they buy products to fix themselves.

[Deicide]

Also, for a lot of men who don't have time to live in the gym (you know, if they have jobs, families or whatever) extremely well built and defined muscles are effectively unattainable.

Obviously people with six packs don't have jobs, they don't study and they don't have family or/and romantic commitments.

[revolt]

There wouldn't really be a purpose for the endless promotion of an unattainable idealised body.

However if there was, there would be no beauty industry to exploit our insecurities and make it more of a problem.

It's always unhealthy to chase an unattainable ideal - I already said that. However, I think that the beauty industry contributes to the problem because it serves their interests - they make their profit by promoting an unattainable ideal, by telling people that they're ugly unless they buy products to fix themselves.

you are not responding to what my post actually says and jumping to conclusions about what my opinions are that I haven't actually expressed.

[Thirsty Crow]

While it is true that impossible standards cannot ever be attained, it is appropriate if an individual tries their best to look their best; and it is appropriate to admire them aesthetically and sexually.

I think you underestimate the fact that alongisde this narrative of "look your best" there is real, tnagible aspect of derision which takes its toll on those people who are judged as lacking in this area.