how can assad surive

[hashem]

as a trotskyist i support all regimes against imperialism.

you are not supporting anyone against imperialism. you are supporting one faction of imperialism system against another one.

[Martin Blank]

neutrality, as trotsky said, is tantamount to support for imperialism

Neutrality is not what's being argued here. Rather, what is being argued is whether it is necessary to support the Assad regime in addition to opposing U.S./UN imperialist intervention. I am for the defeat of American imperialism, and will continue to organize my brothers and sisters to fight against capitalist war through the use of class-struggle means (strikes, "hot cargoing", occupations, protests, etc.).

I am for the defeat of American imperialism, whether or not that means the Assad regime is victorious on the battlefield. As other comrades have said on here, I see no need to try to figure out who is the "lesser evil".

The defeat of both capitalist regimes through proletarian revolution and the establishment of workers' republics is what I advocate, not the propping up of this or that capitalist regime.

[ckaihatsu]

http://wsws.org/articles/2012/jun2012/pers-j14.shtml


Imperialism and the Houla massacre


14 June 2012

Investigations of the May 25 massacre in Houla, Syria have shattered the lies Washington and its allies are using to justify their escalating military intervention in Syria.

Responsibility for the deaths of 108 people massacred in Houla lies not with the Syrian army, but with the Syrian “rebel” forces the US is arming against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, according to the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, a leading German daily. The newspaper reported that the Syrian guerilla groups functioned as Sunni sectarian death squads, wiping out much of Houla’s Shiite Muslim minority. Its sources were not drawn from the Assad regime, but from the Syrian opposition itself, as well as from French religious groups in Syria.

The implications of this revelation go far beyond the atrocity in Houla. They undermine the rotten foundations of the US-led campaign for war with Syria. The media uncritically reports opposition accounts of the killings and Western denunciations of Assad to cynically present arms support for the opposition—or, possibly, a US invasion of Syria—as acts of conscience to halt a humanitarian disaster.

Media outlets carrying such reports are acting as nothing more than propaganda agencies for US intervention. The US and its allies aim to intimidate Russia and China into abandoning their opposition to US-led intervention, then oust Assad and replace him with a pro-US proxy regime.

[...]

[Raskolnikov]

Assad isn't fighting imperialists right now, he is fighting revolutionaries.

These same 'Revolutionaries' whom more or less caused the Houla massacre?

(National Review has the evidence..)

Or the same 'revolutionaries' whom are recruiting child soldiers? (Reuters has an article yet I'm not allowed to post links yet...bah!)

You are supporting one faction of imperialism system against another one.

Sorry, it'd be one Capitalist system (who in this case has come into opposition to much larger Capitalistic forces) against an Imperialistic One.

Imperialism is the final-stage of Capitalism, a capitalism which basically creates 'superprofits' and no longer applies with the regular rules concerning how a capitalist can gain these profits.

Syria, is not an Imperialist power. Capitalist - certainly. Seemingly nationalist-bourgeois.

being supported by Russian imperialists makes you no less imperialist-supported than a US imperialist supported regime

In this case - the Russians do not have the full obedience or full control of the state of Syria. Syria is not Russia's puppet.

While Russia is in this for its own gains (as to oppose US Imperialism as a potential to set up its own) we do know that it has basically become a battlefield between US Imperialism and Syrian Self-Determination.

And as per the usual Capitalists will jump in to oppose each other. Russia will support Syria for its own designs - it just so happens that they're opposing US Imperialism and US aggression in the region.

Basically - going against US and NATO Intervention.

[marxleninstalinmao]

i admit i have not followed this story very closely. but as a trotskyist i support all regimes against imperialism.

as trotsky said he supported the Ethiopia emperor against italy, would support 'facist' brazil against britian, and would support a barbaric monarchy against a 'civilized' imperialist power.

i play it by the book, and dont pretend to be above trotsky and his analysis.

And Stalin supported the Emir of Afghanistan over British Imperialism. That attitude is not limited to your anti-capitalist, treacherous idol

[Sir Comradical]

You sir need to be restricted.

+ YouTube Video

Carried out by FSA. Welcome to five months ago.

[LiberationTheologist]

Before anyone votes for or suggests war they should have a damn good reason for carrying it out. In the case of Syria I dont think the oppression and dictatorship was near the level of worthy of me going out in the streets and shooting the policeman and politicians, but that is my view from afar. This conflict is looking like a religous armed conflict stirred up from without and within. How easy is it to divide people on religion?

It never ceases to amaze me how governments and people outside of a war area can support shipping arms to other nations creating massive, massive slaughter, when they are not even aware of the actual conditions in that country. Of course what do they care, they don't live there. Who amongst us has any idea of the material and social conditions in Syria before this USA, Qatar, French, Turkey, Saudi Kingdom arms supplied war began? None of those prior listed governments has any right to create war in another nation. Why are war partisans not creating war in their own country? Hypocrites.

Shame, shame, shame on any government or person who supports war in another country but wont take up the same action in their own imperialist mass murdering, weapons shipping country.

[Let's Get Free]

Carried out by FSA. Welcome to five months ago.

Actually, according to actual witnesses, the perpetrators were the Shabihha, or the Assad's regime's paid mercenaries, the armed men in civilian clothing who assault protesters against the regime.

[LiberationTheologist]

Actually, according to actual witnesses, the perpetrators were the Shabihha, or the Assad's regime's paid mercenaries, the armed men in civilian clothing who assault protesters against the regime.

What was your news source for formulating that opinion? It is wrong. Propaganda is a serious thing but when you run into these situations you can truly start to question just how the media works. I want to suggest a news source to you it is much more honest; but not totally; than the other main stream corporate media. http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/

Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung: Syrian Rebels Committed Houla Massacre

The German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung has run two articles alleging that Syrian Sunni rebels committed the Houla massacre, reporting that the victims were largely from Alawi and Shia minorities in Houla. This is important because the Syrian government has been blamed for the massacre and the massacre has been invoked as a justification for foreign military intervention.

Here are the articles:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/n...-11776496.html
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/a...-11784434.html

And here are English translations from the articles:
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2012/06...-massacre.html
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2012/06...rmination.html

[ckaihatsu]

Who amongst us has any idea of the material and social conditions in Syria before this USA, Qatar, French, Turkey, Saudi Kingdom arms supplied war began? None of those prior listed governments has any right to create war in another nation. Why are war partisans not creating war in their own country? Hypocrites.

Shame, shame, shame on any government or person who supports war in another country but wont take up the same action in their own imperialist mass murdering, weapons shipping country.

This is profoundly correct, and is one of the best things I've ever seen on RevLeft -- the 'ludicrosity' of the war industry is at historical levels now, and may even be reflected in the mouthing of "secessionist" sentiment from a number of the states -- (meaning that the secessionist move would somehow implicitly be a veto of the unity of the Union on its imperialist foreign policy presence).

(There's a thread on this elsewhere here.)

[Avanti]

assad can not survive

assad has always been dead

since the day

he was selected as a chosen

and that's for all the well-known faces

what assad is

is but a shadow of interests we cannot see

which clash against one another

he was marked

the civilians

dying in the rubble

are not even the pawns

they are the dust of the chessboard

the rulers were bored

[Let's Get Free]

What was your news source for formulating that opinion? It is wrong.

This is from the actual witnesses, you know, the people who saw it first hand.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Seems like the kind of thing that Assad's goons would perpetrate.

[LiberationTheologist]

This is from the actual witnesses, you know, the people who saw it first hand.

That is not a total answer to my question but it does show your perception is based on weak sources, which was the lie in actuality. You may have swallowed the lie and not examined the reality that was exposed after the mass propaganda story took place. Let me ask you another question so I can judge whether or not I am dealing with someone who is seeking reality and the truth or just someone who wants to win an argument. Have you ever seen a large corporate media story before and realized later that what you were seeing was a purposefully crafted falsification of reality?

I have been fooled before and learned that I and no one else can take an event as portrayed by main stream media (capitalist main stream media I will add)as truth without doing investigation and checking other sources. Do you agree with the prior statement?

If you and others at some point took your news source as informative and did not keep tabs on the Houla massacre then you missed a good lesson on how media manipulation by the huge media propaganda machine works. I hope you re-examine this story because this is a very concrete real lesson in how false propaganda and the media works.

To be more blunt in this case you are simply eating up main stream media lies as they are fed to you. This is an example of the power of mass media to distort reality.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Haven't UN investigators determined that Assad's forces were in fact responsible for the Houla massacre?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Does it even matter who did it? Even if it were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Assad's supporters carried out the massacre, even if Assad himself was caught on video strangling an infant in it's crib, the anti-imperialists here on revleft would just say, "oh, well, American supported FSA imperialist quislings carried out such and such massacre, American quislings in the Ivory Coast did this, imperialist goons in the Balkans did such-and-such massacre back in the 90's, etc."

It's so tiring and stupid. It's not like anyone on either side really cares about these slaughters anyway. A slaughter perpetrated by the "good guys" is just an unfortunate deviation, a statistic (if it can even be proven to have happened...who knows, perhaps it was a false flag, or a wholesale fabrication of the media!), while a slaughter perpetrated by the "bad guys" is living proof of the evil demonic intentions of Assad and the Syrian government, or the AmeriKKKan imperialists and their Islamic fundamentalist puppets.

It makes me want to puke.

[LiberationTheologist]

Does it even matter who did it? Even if it were proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Assad's supporters carried out the massacre, even if Assad himself was caught on video strangling an infant in it's crib, the anti-imperialists here on revleft would just say, "oh, well, American supported FSA imperialist quislings carried out such and such massacre, American quislings in the Ivory Coast did this, imperialist goons in the Balkans did such-and-such massacre back in the 90's, etc."
It's so tiring and stupid. It's not like anyone on either side really cares about these slaughters anyway. A slaughter perpetrated by the "good guys" is just an unfortunate deviation, a statistic (if it can even be proven to have happened...who knows, perhaps it was a false flag, or a wholesale fabrication of the media!), while a slaughter perpetrated by the "bad guys" is living proof of the evil demonic intentions of Assad and the Syrian government, or the AmeriKKKan imperialists and their Islamic fundamentalist puppets.

It makes me want to puke.

When attempting to ascertain the truth always verify your news sources and ask the other person were they are getting their information.

Your point about people with agendas is a very valid one. Please note I asked the other poster to name his sources of information and asked him questions to ascertain whether he is pushing and agenda or searching for the truth. He has provided nothing and may have an agenda that is based not on truth seeking but on other interests.

You are stating that pro - Assad people carried out the slaughter and that is false from what I have seen. What is your basis for your claim and your sources of information?

[Os Cangaceiros]

You are stating that pro - Assad people carried out the slaughter and that is false from what I have seen. What is your basis for your claim and your sources of information?

I'm actually not stating that. I don't think it particularly matters who committed that specific attack, as I stated in my post.

I don't know who did it, but why should I believe a link you posted, which in itself is based on anonymous sources in Syria? If I posted an article from CNN which stated that anonymous Sunni activist sources have claimed that Assad's troops are chopping up random civilians with machetes, would you believe it? Am I supposed to disregard everything from CNN and the BBC and Al Jazeera, yet believe everything from the Syrian state media and Press TV and RT?