how can assad surive

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

i admit i have not followed this story very closely. but as a trotskyist i support all regimes against imperialism.

There are no regimes in the world today which are "against Imperialism". Or at least if there are, Syria is not one of them. It is opposed to particular empires around the world like the US, but that doesn't make their regime "against Imperialism". That seems to be an oversimplistic division of the world, as if other nations around the world like Russia and China don't have Imperialistic interests. More importantly the Syrian regime is collapsing because its refusal to respond properly to the current social and political crisis. This is because it represents Capitalist interests, and is willing to use violence to preserve those interests. That the Muslim Brotherhood or whatever other faction has started an insurrection doesn't change the causal relationship.

as trotsky said he supported the Ethiopia emperor against italy, would support 'facist' brazil against britian, and would support a barbaric monarchy against a 'civilized' imperialist power.

Ethiopia & Brazil in the 1930s =/= Syria in the 2010s. For one thing, Syria is suffering from its own internal contradictions. Insofar as Imperialists are involved, it is only because they are exploiting the unrest. They did not create this unrest out of thin air however, but it was created because of the crisis of capitalism as well as the crisis of state legitimacy we have seen in the Arab world over the past year and a half. Those conditions won't go away if Assad wins ... in fact the suffering of the people will only expand. State Capitalist dictatorships like Assad's don't have the tools to overcome these kinds of crises without raining down terror on their population. People act like somehow capitalist crises don't affect "anti-Imperialist" regimes too.

i play it by the book, and dont pretend to be above trotsky and his analysis.

Trotsky's views evolved over his life; he obviously didn't take his own word as gospel, so why should his "followers"?

neutrality, as trotsky said, is tantamount to support for imperialism

This might well be the case, but the only options are not limited to "neutrality, pro-assad, pro-imperialist".

[jookyle]

Supporting a people overthrowing a murderous bastard isn't the same as supporting imperialism.

[Prometeo liberado]

I cant believe I'm going to say this but the OP makes a good argument. All Dictators have a shelf life, some longer than others. Like bananas they show soft spots and age marks just before they are scheduled to depart. Assad, my friends is ripe fruit and it's only getting hotter. T. Cliff can say and write whatever dribble comes out of that insignificant little vapid head of his but we are internationalist and in being that we support only the working class. No "what ifs" or whatever other compromises you need to make your trot cosmology fit, just a simple "I stand in unity with the international working class against oppression homegrown or foreign".

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

neutrality, as trotsky said, is tantamount to support for imperialism

But loads of us think Trotsky was a raging shithead, so we don't really accept that. It's not analysis to say 'you're wrong because Trotsky said so'. Put him off of his pedastool and engage your own brain, dude.

People are getting killed willy nilly in Syria. Real people, real families, real workers. To sit back in the safety of your own middle-class home behind your computer and overlook all of this, in the name of anti-imperialism is pretty dreadful. To do so because another main who died decades ago said so, and not because of your own original thinking, is really just blind stupidity beyond belief.

[Devrim]

T. Cliff can say and write whatever dribble comes out of that insignificant little vapid head of his...

Cliff tends to write very little these days. I would put it down to his medical condition.

Devrim

[Imposter Marxist]

Tony Cliff, god rest his beautiful soul, is dead, my friends.

[ckaihatsu]

This part, by itself, is unnecessarily dismissive:

People are getting killed willy nilly in Syria. Real people, real families, real workers. To sit back in the safety of your own middle-class home behind your computer and overlook all of this, in the name of anti-imperialism is pretty dreadful.

It's practically counter-revolutionary, to play the 'armchair-activist' card -- instead we should be seeing this as an *increase* in class consciousness, self-motivated political participation, and a dynamism that simply hasn't been possible in the past.

If *more* people were on RevLeft and actively wrestling with revolutionary political issues it *would* have a tangible effect in the real world, have no doubt.

And, to the topic, what's been happening in Syria is not some wanton genocide -- it's a thuggish regime whose base of power is drying up like a puddle in the sun. But that *doesn't* mean that makes it okay for outsiders to play white-knight-on-a-horse and come rushing in with missiles and oil contracts. Whatever the people of Syria can do for themselves is to be encouraged the world over, and if they put out a leftist proletarian strategy for revolution there and throughout the Middle East then that would be our cue.

Unfortunately the situation is stagnating and the existing base of power is fragmenting, from what I can gather. It's too much pressure in one place, with no relief in sight.

[Bronco]

Syria was actually a peaceful place, with relative freedom, prior to this insurgency

No, it's a country that's been ruled by one family for more than 40 years, using the military and secret police to crush dissent and imposing numerous restrictions on its citizens. By no means could Syria under Assad ever have been considered a place of "freedom"

[Arlekino]

It looks different story.
http://news.yahoo.com/syria-anti-gov...161038724.html

[scarletghoul]

As a communist, I support the people fighting against the mercenaries of imperialist capital in the middle east. This should be obvious. (and if anyone disputes that the syrian opposition is imperialist-backed then youre just a fucking fool. our media and governments are both glorifying them, turkey is letting itself be used as a base, and the gulf states are openly paying their salaries. Wake up, for fuck sake.)

[scarletghoul]

youre also a moron if you took the bbc/reuters/whatever story about houla for granted and immediately went 'omg assads killing people' without questioning a thing. at least fucking investigate the other side in these things , my god,, did we have similar discussions on here about saddams wmd

[Rafiq]

You sir need to be restricted.

+ YouTube Video

You don't need to resort to emotional rhetoric to debate someone whose pro assad. The UN confirmed, I believe, Syrian military wasn't responsable for that.

As if Assad's regime is to be supported if no "massacres" occured. Either way, he's to be opposed.

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[Brosa Luxemburg]

i admit i have not followed this story very closely. but as a trotskyist i support all regimes against imperialism.

as trotsky said he supported the Ethiopia emperor against italy, would support 'facist' brazil against britian, and would support a barbaric monarchy against a 'civilized' imperialist power.

i play it by the book, and dont pretend to be above trotsky and his analysis.

neutrality, as trotsky said, is tantamount to support for imperialism

you can read some trotsky, agree with it or not is your choice.

So basically your entire defense of what you have said has been "Trotsky said it, so it must be true!"

Marxism is not a religion. We do not have gods for which we must live our lives for and respect every word they say. You, it would seem, would disagree.

[blake 3:17]

The question for those of us in the imperialist countries is whether or not we support imperialist intervention under a humanitarian guise. Many on the liberal/social democratic left are demanding imperialist intervention. Do we support that?

[Krano]

So basically your entire defense of what you have said has been "Trotsky said it, so it must be true!"

Marxism is not a religion. We do not have gods for which we must live our lives for and respect every word they say. You, it would seem, would disagree.

Thats what (Enter Name) isms are all about.

[Comrade Samuel]

You might as well be a Stalinist while you're at it, you know the people who support the North Korean feudal dynasty because of anti-imperialism.

For the record comrade we filthy godless "Stalinists" despise the governments of both Syria and North Korea, your far better off being a one-person tendency stumbling all over yourself with your self-contradiction and batshit crazy opinion on the matter.

No "stand against imperialism" is worth the deaths of hundreds of workers, I ask you OP to find me one other person here who disagrees

[Krano]

For the record comrade we filthy godless "Stalinists" despise the governments of both Syria and North Korea, your far better off being a one-person tendency stumbling all over yourself with your self-contradiction and batshit crazy opinion on the matter.

I don't see whats contradictory about being opposed to both imperialism and dictatorships, i know you fine folk sure like to take sides with any dictator that call themselfs even remotely socialist or anti-imperialist.

[Comrade Samuel]

I don't see whats contradictory about being opposed to both imperialism and dictatorships, i know you fine folk sure like to take sides with any dictator that call themselfs even remotely socialist or anti-imperialist.

(please refer to the edit, sorry for not being clear who the second part of the rant was directed toward)

Also who are these "dictators" we supposedly support for calling themselves socialist/anti- imperialist?

[Krano]

(please refer to the edit, sorry for not being clear who the second part of the rant was directed toward)

Also who are these "dictators" we supposedly support for calling themselves socialist/anti- imperialist?

Well the few that supported North Korea seem to be banned now anyway, of course i don't mean all of you, but some of you do seem to have a bad habit of choosing between lesser evils which is something leftists shouldnt do to begin with.

[Comrade Samuel]

Well the few that supported North Korea seem to be banned now anyway, of course i don't mean all of you, but some of you do seem to have a bad habit of choosing between lesser evils which is something leftists shouldnt do to begin with.

I would hardly go as far to say supporters of North Korea are looked upon very kindly by the majority of Marxist-Leninists to begin with, I'd say just about all of us see juche as revisionist and an insult to real marxism.

I don't really understand what you mean by "haveing a bad habit of choosing the lesser of two evils". That could mean choosing a reformist party over the the republicans which again I doubt anybody from any tendency could care less about either way.

Regardless we should stop derailing this thread with our petty little tendency disagreement, there's 100's of other places for that.