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Taxation: residency or citizenship? [And a French perspective]
"A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)
"A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
So if you pay more taxes abroad than you would at home does the French government pay you some of it back? I doubt it. It's not really about being "fair". It's about governments getting your money and using whatever post hoc justification they can to keep the population from rioting.
Governments responsible for the maintenance of roads, security and justice systems all require a certain portion of funds held by members who enjoy those resources be allocated to said resources. Citizenship, being the constituent element of this social system, is an obvious basis for the right to tax. You can always renounce your citizenship, of course. Businesses often consume these resources at a far greater pace, but are usually only taxed as such in states with stronger social institutions such as we see in Western Europe and North America.
In any case, there is no reason for these cumbersome systems to allow gaping loopholes for the transference of national assets - such as the money supply - to tax "safe havens," particularly when its possessors continue to enjoy the services of the government - including its central bank providing a stable currency.
It is my understanding that this is a rather unique case in Europe, whereas in the US such a system has existed for some time, albeit with many loopholes.
In fact, France should be going further. There is no good reason to allow the wholesale emigration of the money supply, capital and land rights. Where we have seen that, more often than not there has been a failed state or an administration lacking democratic legitimacy. Post-soviet Russia is a classic example, and Putin's hard line on controlling Gazprom, for instance, is one of the things that make him popular - though not in the West, where control over Gazprom is badly wanted. A similar case is in China, where state-imposed limitations on mining a finite resource - rare earth minerals - is being met with legal action by Western nations. That's a simple case of exploitation.
This need to maintain social control over public assets is more applicable to populations that have been exploited for centuries, including Africans (1.7Trillion have been embezzled and much has been sent to Western nations) and Afghans. So France, being an historical exploiter and possessor of many foreign assets, is hardly a victim here - but the French people are victims, something increasingly true in this age of austerity.
Honestly, though - "fair"? If you look at every individual case and see only some shallow moral doctrine to measure against it, you'll never learn anything about how these systems work. It should be a foregone conclusion that "fairness" didn't factor into it: nobody is approaching anyone else on equal ground, with honest intentions and shared resources. Without such conditions of mutual consent and shared power, decrying the lack of "fairness" is as absurd as complaining about the scarcity of real estate in a feudal society. It is purely meaningless, and inapplicable to the socio-economic relations we are talking about.
Weren't these guys whining about how millionaires are fleeing France because of "high" taxes? By that same logic, millionaires will not only flee, but renounce their French citizenships as well. How pathetic is the spectacle of Sarkozy trying to win for the April elections! The French will not be able to find someone more bastardly to be their president, no matter how much they try, for centuries to come!
I posted this here because every other country in the world taxes individuals' global incomes based on their residency, not on citizenship and residency.
"A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)
"A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
Why rob me to buy something for me that I would pay for myself? If I wouldn't pay for it myself then how can you say I'm enjoying it?
Unfortunately, that's not necessarily the best idea. If they renounce their French citizenship they might lose the property that they owned in France, and the privileges that come with that citizenship.
APAB
All Presidents are Bastards.
“How in the hell could a man enjoy being awakened at 6:30 a.m. by an alarm clock, leap out of bed, dress, force-feed, shit, piss, brush teeth and hair, and fight traffic to get to a place where essentially you made lots of money for somebody else and were asked to be grateful for the opportunity to do so?” Charles Bukowski, Factotum
"In our glorious fight for civil rights, we must guard against being fooled by false slogans, as 'right-to-work.' It provides no 'rights' and no 'works.' Its purpose is to destroy labor unions and the freedom of collective bargaining... We demand this fraud be stopped." MLK
-fka Redbrother
Robbery? What on earth are you on about?
He is just being dramatic..
But I guess he is talking about the coercive force, that the state uses to obtain these taxes.
Last edited by Prinskaj; 17th March 2012 at 20:35.
If you are aboard, you are not making use of whatever services the French state is providing. So you need not pay.
Because YOU don't deal with market externalities that you create, society deals with them.
Not true. If you're still a French citizen then no matter where you live in the world, you may find cause to use the services of the French Consulate or some such, for example when the little tax-haven you live in gets overrun by disaster, invasion or rebellion. A crisis of sufficient magnitude involving French citizens living abroad may involve other branches of the French government, for example the French Navy may be called on to help with an evacuation.
The Human Progress Group
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IIRC, France is proposing to follow the American model I believe Americans for example also need to file and pay income taxes wherever they live. If they live abroad, then they are liable for American taxes unless their source of income is outside the United States and the country where their source of income is has a reciprocity agreement with the United States. This is the overwhelming majority of countries, I believe even Iran has some kind of weird agreement, but nevertheless, the default approach in America is you owe taxes unless you completely cut ties and pay back taxes. There's some clause I believe in the American passport that says you are still liable for American taxes even if you give up US citizenship. I could be wrong on this, but this is why retired social security recipients in Mexico for example have to pay American taxes, and the Mexican government overlooks their tax burdens.
Certainly many countries act as you describe, but France I believe is trying to move away from this model, and I suspect they are not unique. All governments are desperate to get what income they can, I suppose.
百花齐放
-----------------------------
la luz
de un Rojo Amanecer
anuncia ya
la vida que vendrá.
-Quilapayun
^^^ Comrade, France is proposing to go a step further, since US citizens living in a foreign lower-tax regime aren't paying US levels of income taxation. Most residency countries have reciprocity agreements, but I'm sure most countries have the residency model ("deemed residency" typically has limited scope, like soldiers living overseas long-term).
"A new centrist project does not have to repeat these mistakes. Nobody in this topic is advocating a carbon copy of the Second International (which again was only partly centrist)." (Tjis, class-struggle anarchist)
"A centrist strategy is based on patience, and building a movement or party or party-movement through deploying various instruments, which I think should include: workplace organising, housing struggles [...] and social services [...] and a range of other activities such as sports and culture. These are recruitment and retention tools that allow for a platform for political education." (Tim Cornelis, left-communist)
You should pay your taxes where you made your money. That's fair.
Worker's shouldn't have to pay taxes. That's fair.
百花齐放
-----------------------------
la luz
de un Rojo Amanecer
anuncia ya
la vida que vendrá.
-Quilapayun
