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Could the U.S. be stopped by political power abroad?
After following the latest events (Syria, rising gas prices, etc.), and especially the demonizing of Iran, I'm becoming increasingly nervous about what's going to happen. I think it's a matter of when, not if, Iran is invaded. I'm sure the U.S. is waiting on Israel to make the first move, and then have no choice but to step in.
What makes me the most worried is that the politicians and pundits just can't shut up about Iran. It's almost funny how with all the problems in the world, they're haunted by that one nation that just wants an alternative energy source. That's why I know Iran will be attacked, there's just too much propagandizing for everyone to simply drop the issue the next day.
It's kind of a dark fantasy of mine that if the U.S. and/or Israel attacks Iran, China and Russia will come to Iran's side and have an epic stand-off. Let's see how America reacts if it has to fight countries that can actually hurt them. (Iran would put up a fight, but not like the Russians and Chinese could)
I guess the main point of this post is to ask if the combined political, soft power of the rest of the world could be used to shut down America's aggression? I know there are few if any countries on Earth that could defeat America by force of arms alone (at least without using nukes), but perhaps the country's Achilles heel would be in extremely harsh sanctions and other non-violent measures to get us to stop our addiction to war.
America's manufacturing base has been gutted, we're a shadow of our former selves in what we could produce, our dollar may someday no longer be the world's reserve currency. Nations are overtaking us in the sciences. Our government is hopelessly corrupt, our corporations lord over us like we're medieval peasants. I mean, if not for our arms, Hollywood movies and I guess video games, does the rest of the world really need America?
If we unjustly devastate another country, I hope there is enough "soft power" and political influence to choke out our ability to continue making war. I just don't know enough about international politics to know if its possible or not. The alternative could be WW3, and by then it might be too late.
"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it." -Henry David Thoreau
Lately I'm concerned that the most likely way US imperialism will be defeated is by another imperialist country or coalition with a serious CBRN arsenal and space assets.
If we fail to make successful workers' revolution, sooner or later we'll suffer another world war, and the oceans won't protect CONUS this time.
In a world war in the 21st century, every argument we've heard against revolution will be null and void. What good is your private property and your flag and your race and your god when you're vaporized by nukes or dying from chemical and biological weapons? Where could you run away to escape it, seriously?
Another world war is a real possibility, thanks to every asshole you have met or didn't yet meet that had some interest in maintaining this system or stupidly perceived they'd be better off under it.
I don't know if Iran will be the spark of the next world war, but eventually there will be such a spark. Then, it's likely too late, unless workers' revolution has seized power in at least one of the CBRN armed countries and urged immediate international revolution to prevent world war and global destruction. A very thin line will separate the liberation of humanity from the destruction of the planet and most life as we know it...and that is only if the revolutionary left actually got its shit together inside the working class and prepared our class for revolution. Forget about a future if the revolutionary left doesn't at least do that much. Anyone who objectively makes peace with this system curses us with eventual world war.
Last edited by workersadvocate; 23rd February 2012 at 18:25.
With respect to the equation; Socialism or barbarism, sad to say that I wouldn't bet any money on socialism these days. To quote signor Gramsci; "pessimism of the intellect, optimism of will."
Hi, its true, the USA is falling. However we cannot tell if the US Capitalist-Imperailist Government will be destroyed by the socialist people of the USA, or externally like you wrote here. Watch this great video of professor Chalmers Johnson talking about the fall of imperialist countries (Chalmers Johnson died some years ago). But his words are still valuable today. Thanks !!!
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Ponzu: From what I've read in http://www.globalresearch.ca http://www.informationclearinghouse.info http://www.counterpunch.org and other alternative news sites about international politics. Is that the real objective to invade Iran is to steal its oil. Obama, The Pentagon and the US congress won't say in TV: "We want to invade Iran in order to give the oil of Iran to Exxon, Texaco, Shell and B.P"
But that is the real goal of an invasion against Iran. Of course there are geo-political purposes, like to convert Iran into an Israel # 2, or perhaps Israel # 4 (Because Iraq is already an Israel, Colombia is another Israel, I guess there are other Israels (Military Bases for US Empire).
So having said all this, I think that GEO-POLITICAL OBJECTIVES are another goal of attacking Iran.
I am a Trotskist, but at the same time I am a little bit Stalinist, Maoist, Leninist and realist. What I mean is that this world is very complicated very evil. And I think that we might need to create another USSR as a necessary evil to destroy the capitalist system and terrorist nations like USA, Europe, Israel and its allies.
I mean, doing every thing in this world "by the book" is just too hard, too utopian, to perfectionist. It is just too hard to wait for the workers of Mcdonalds, Wal Mart, General Motors and workers of all businesses of the USA to read Marxist books, to become socialists. And for themselves to unite into a Big American Marxist Party. US workes and most workers in this world are too physically tired, from an excess of working, chores, paying bills, getting the basic needs for their children and family, etc. etc.
Well, I think that if the realist stalinist-maoist left doesn't think about something, if Hugo Chavez, Russia, China and Iran do not unite into a new USSR we will be doomed and destroyed by the Pax Americana plan of The Bush Crime Family, the axis of evil (US, Israel, NATO, Saudi Arabia and allies)
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WORKERSADVOCATE: Indeed, have you read about the suicidal behaviour patterns of humans? Well according to psychiatrists, psychoanalists and psychologists, there has always been in this world the virus of ultra-pessimism, nihilism and suicidal behaviours in the masses. Killing yourself with a gun is not the only ways that humans can kill themselves. There are also suicidal tendencies by slow-death, like binge-eating, driving at very fast speeds, driving while drunk. Over-spending all the money of a family and not saving for food, health and important things.
And I think that another great form of suicide in the masses of many countries is voting for traditional capitalist political parties. Indeed, we have that proof of that. Because in Chile people voted for a neoliberal-capitalist into power (Piñeira), and in Spain as well (Rajoy from The Popular Party of Spain)
And it's true that capitalist parties benefit business owners a lot more than socialist parties. But even in the most richest nations the majority of people are workers, not business-owners. So we can deduct (A priori), that the working class of Spain and Chile have voted for the capitalist system in their societies.
So if American voters keep voting for traditional politicians (Mitt Romney, Obama, Newt Gingritch, Rick Santorium, Jeb Bush etc) it really means that the US workers suffer from suicidal tendencies and by their voting behaviour they are supporting (endorsing) wars, concentration of wealth in a few, diseases (From privatized hospitals and privatized health care system), for hunger, for misery and for death.
Something has to give!!
I think you are right on the money with this post. It really is socialism or barbarism now. U.S. meddling in the Middle East may very well start a new World War and I don't think any side can win it. Einstein was right when he said "I know not what weapons world war three will be fought with, but world war four will be fought with sticks and stones."
If things come to a standoff in Iran, couldn't China call in the debt the U.S. owes it? People have said this would be to China's detriment to do, but I would need to know more about this to understand. Is there anything OPEC could do? These are some of the things I'm trying to think could dissuade the U.S. from military action.
If I'm not mistaken, isn't the U.S. military budget actually shrinking, and troops being cut? If we try to invade on the cheap, like we did in Iraq, we have to know it couldn't work this time.
If China, Russia and the regional middle eastern powers could make a power play, I would think around now would be a good time to do it. Maybe a multinational trade embargo could work as well. The U.S. imports more than it exports, so maybe by cutting imports to the U.S., it could give the powers that be pause for thought.
We revolutionaries on the home front could do our part as well, with the Occupy movement and such. I've been reluctant to bring up Occupy, cause I think it's still early to know what it's exact beliefs are. But if they're targeting Wall Street, I think it's safe to assume they're on our sideCan't wait to see what they're gonna do in the spring when the weather gets better.
Another thing that makes me worried about the coming war is the militarization of our police forces. Anybody think all of this is a run up to the fallout (radioactively or figuratively speaking :-)) that may result from the next war?
"Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it." -Henry David Thoreau
Even if US war drive could be stopped by imperialists of the other countries (who are all eyeing each others throats as much as US), this would be no victory for the global working class.
I don't think that nuclear war is a real possibility. Imperialism wants to win and there are no winners in a nuclear war. Instead, I believe that world capitalism is going into global degeneration. As a system, they are unable to offer a solution this time.
The solution for capitalist crisis was until now one of the following:
- expand (can't be done, no more untapped lands and resources)
- evolve (new technologies, markets - dubious solution, at our technological level innovation has become too costly and risky to be a social solution).
- conquer a neighbour or simply tear everything down in a world war and start over (can't be done because of nuclear weapons - war will not just level the playing field for capital, it will eliminate capital as well).
Since they are unable to offer a solution, the world capitalism will enter into a period of stagnation. It will slowly fall apart. There is only one serious alternative left - a higher social order, i.e. socialism.
You are 100% right about the extreme police dictatorial state in the last 4 years of Obama, even a lot stronger than the 8 years of Bush. And the bad thing about this hell is that most american regular joes out there, are not doing their part in opposing this police-hell on earth. I guess that they are waiting for a slow death. You gotta think about the needs of people. I think that because the personal routines of most americans are so boring, so dull, which is a daily routine of working, chores, grocery shopping, and nothing else. Maybe they have figured out to themselves and jumped to the conclusion that they can live perfectly happy, without any problems with the police authorities, and even with Adolf Hitler as USA president doing their dull boring routines of working grocery shopping, law-mowing and nothing else (What a boring country). Because those daily activities can be performed within a nazi police dictatorship without any problem with the nazi police forces.
That's what I really think on why millions of american regular people are not supporting The Occupy Protests and are not even members of any political party. They are not even right-wingers, totally 100% away from politics, because like I said you don't have a deep need for liberty, an obssession for liberty, a deep *desire* to live in a political system without police oppression, they have maybe figured out that they don't need personal liberty to go to work, for their domestic chores and to eat. So maybe that's why millions of americans are perfectly happy living in this police dictatorship and even with Hitler as president.
There are elements of conformism, phyisical lazyness (poor physical energies to revolt, be angry and be socialists), and many other causes that determine the extreme suicidal tendencies and support for this police dictatorship of most americans.
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If things come to a standoff in Iran, couldn't China call in the debt the U.S. owes it? People have said this would be to China's detriment to do, but I would need to know more about this to understand. Is there anything OPEC could do? These are some of the things I'm trying to think could dissuade the U.S. from military action.
If I'm not mistaken, isn't the U.S. military budget actually shrinking, and troops being cut? If we try to invade on the cheap, like we did in Iraq, we have to know it couldn't work this time.
If China, Russia and the regional middle eastern powers could make a power play, I would think around now would be a good time to do it. Maybe a multinational trade embargo could work as well. The U.S. imports more than it exports, so maybe by cutting imports to the U.S., it could give the powers that be pause for thought.
We revolutionaries on the home front could do our part as well, with the Occupy movement and such. I've been reluctant to bring up Occupy, cause I think it's still early to know what it's exact beliefs are. But if they're targeting Wall Street, I think it's safe to assume they're on our side
Another thing that makes me worried about the coming war is the militarization of our police forces. Anybody think all of this is a run up to the fallout (radioactively or figuratively speaking :-)) that may result from the next war?
There won't be a world war if the west invades Iran.
You need to stop thinking of the geo-political arena as a game played by nation-states and instead think of it as a game played by international economic players. It is the capitalist class which controls the game and this class seeks to exploit new markets (read: Iran). There are plenty of people in China who are members of this class, and they are using the Chinese (and Russian) governments to hedge their ability to capitalize on this oil region.
Going to war with the US helps no one in the capitalist class. Wars are not fought by super powers anymore - they are fought via proxy. Israel, Iran, etc... These nations will go to war and the US will supply air support, etc... China and Russia might do the same but they won't come to actual blows themselves as this would disrupt the international economy and the owners of the international economy profit from proxy wars, but won't profit as much from a full-blown international free-for-all.
- August
If we have no business with the construction of the future or with organizing it for all time, there can still be no doubt about the task confronting us at present: the ruthless criticism of the existing order, ruthless in that it will shrink neither from its own discoveries, nor from conflict with the powers that be.
- Karl Marx
Strannik: true and I think that another solution for capitalism to be saved would be to increase wages of workers. But I think that is impossible because the rising costs of oil, and the costs of goods and services unable business owners (capitalist class) to raise the wages of the working class of the world.
Like you said capitalism will not continue for much longer. However since the majority of people in this world are so dumbed down by movies, sports games, capitalist music and capitalist mainstream entertainment and art, by telenovelas, and all that junk that fills the minds of people. It is real hard to see real marxists, real leftists, real trotskists, real leninists, socialist political parties gaining strength in all countries of the world.
What we see in many countries are third way parties (Social-democratic parties) as options for the right-wing capitalist parties.
It is the task of the marxism left all over the world to become serious, get funding, resources, money to buy TV stations, newspapers, and other forms of media in order to spread the marxism knowledge to all the poor people of the world.
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AUGUST: wow you are real real smart, you should be president of the whole world !! Thanks a lot my great friend for that 100% clear-cupt explanation. By the way I like the books of Fredrich Nietzsche a lot. And indeed you are right about wars not being fought by the 300 million people of USA, by the 7 millions of Israeli citizens against the millions of Iranian people.
Yeah you are right, they are fought by an oligarchic-faction of USA, Europe etc, against the burocratic-oligarchic rules of Iran.
I guess that's why Gianni Vattimo (An Italian Philosopher) said that the next big world war, will be fought by the poor people of the world vs. the rich people of the world, I guess that's when all the socialist people of the world will overthrow the capitalist class of the whole world.
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I do not think that socialism will come about from a massive war between poor and rich. This war would not be allowed to occur by the ruling class as it would fundamentally jeopardize their position.
More likely is that socialism will come about through the continuous process of communization by different peoples in different parts of the world. Class consciousness comes about individually, a phenomenon which can be spurred globally but fundamentally must come about in each and every worker themselves.
Remember that wars are economic actions of aggression. They are activities conducted by proxy (as the economic actors never fire a bullet or set foot on the ground) and are used to create and exploit new markets.
We are far from socialism as capitalism must reach its logical conclusion before relative deprivation sets in enough to nudge the working class into action as a whole.
- August
If we have no business with the construction of the future or with organizing it for all time, there can still be no doubt about the task confronting us at present: the ruthless criticism of the existing order, ruthless in that it will shrink neither from its own discoveries, nor from conflict with the powers that be.
- Karl Marx
So, on the one hand, you need destabilizing uncontrolled international warfare between the Great Powers to create the circumstances in which working class average joes realize that they need revolution and need it right now.
On the other hand, few in the Great Power countries are so miserable and so immediately pressed as to seek out revolution as an alternative to 10 thousand other various forms of distractions, safer panaceas and non-revolutionary choices. Without the barrel of a gun to their heads to clarify things up quickly, we Americans proudly live in "screw you I'm doing okay" land.
I think I'm gonna go dust off my Marilyn Manson music and listen for a bit.
Peace, stability, comfort, escape, distractions, status quo continuance...these are gonna kill us, yet Americans are fucking addicted to them.
For revolution to be "in demand", we need to cut off the "supply" of these things Americans are so addicted to. Eliminate all other options from the table...too fucking bad if the medicine is harsh. Not like the Americans gave a shit about how harsh it was for people "over there".
Incorrect. You cannot bring about a revolution by increasing the suffering of your fellow working class.
Certainly it is true that relative deprivation will lead to increased class consciousness, but relative deprivation is not something that can be forced, it is a passive phenomenon which occurs under all forms of economic and political structures.
If you wish to hasten the revolution, you'd be far better off laying the groundwork for class struggle; i.e. starting the communization of everyday life. Your fellow workers will need this when they become class conscious, they will not need your help in suffering as we all suffer enough each day as it is.
- August
If we have no business with the construction of the future or with organizing it for all time, there can still be no doubt about the task confronting us at present: the ruthless criticism of the existing order, ruthless in that it will shrink neither from its own discoveries, nor from conflict with the powers that be.
- Karl Marx
I don't have the power to do jack shit at this point, and struggle to find the basic motivation to change that if it even can be changed. Hard to give a shit about people who don't give a shit or basically just want this system. The war drums are beating against Iran...but if you live in America, look around, nobody gives a shit, since it's "over there" and nobody here thinks anything can touch us offensively. Nothing to worry about unless they are in the military (less than 1% of the US population). Americans just assume that the other great powers will maybe whine a bit but get out of the USA's way in the end like usual. Maybe ot'll cost a lot if money to wage that war "over there", but who cares, it's what we Americans do to make sure nobody can ever touch us. That's how most Americans think of it...any evil os acceptable for "our country" to perpetrate so long as no "bad guys" are attacking us in our own yards, homes and streets and we can continue watching sports, going to church, drinking at the bars, shopping at the malls, driving our cars and watching TV like nothing matters.
Ever wonder what would happen if those distractions, conveniences, comforts taken for granted, and room to escape the consequences of warmongering were somehow taken away and "shit finally got real" for Americans on their own turf? What would happen if the power went out, they couldn't trust their own food and water, it wasn't necessarily safe to go roaming around in public, logistical and communication systems have broken down, civil authority is not readily available and calling 911 won't do you any good?
I don't mean that by itself would solve things. The revolutionary alternative must be prepared and already a significant fact of life for many working people in order to resolve the question. But, my point is, so long as American life as we know it essentially continues, forget about mass support for a revolutionary systematic change. No pain, no gain. Gotta get the American " monkey on our back" out of the way first. Make going back impossible.
Kill the American Dream that keeps people asleep and docile and comforted. Wake up...monsters are real, and they've been running society a long time, and now we suffer for allowing them to rule while we were fucking around doing our own things and not giving a fuck. When pain comes to themselves, suddenly people begin to give a fuck and want to do something to stop that pain. It won't be nice rational arguments that pursuade most people...it will be the choice between more pain or a chance to stop that pain and maybe even rebuild a better world. Revolution, to stop the killing and dying and suffering around us, not because of what somebody else said in a book a century ago.
What do you suppose it would realize take to create mass support and active involvement in a proletarian revolution in the USA? The paths of less resistance must be gone, and survival of the many depends on successful revolution.
The "American dream" is one of many devices of cultural hegemony that have existed throughout US history and accelerated following the second World War. Ironically, the bourgeoisie is itself killing the "American dream" in its lust for maximized profitability. As revolutionaries our best course of action would be to point out that the best way forward for American workers is to once again assert the type of class consciousness that fostered the industrial unionization movement of the 1930s. That would give us some basis to seek to further develop a type of political consciousness amongst the working class.
This sounds all well and good about consciousness and organizing, but are you just left to praying for miracles for revolutionary objective prerequite conditions to occur in Great Powers like the USA?
Don't objective conditions and social being effect consciousness?
Don't all other alternative paths have to be effectively eliminated (made objectively impossible) in order for masses of working people to take the revolutionary road?
Doesn't it have to be made impossible for the ruling class to govern "as usual" even one more day?
Don't working people in their majority have to be at such point ehere they literallt cannot put up with the current system even one more day?
So not only must the working class become much stronger, but the system must become much weaker for revolution to even be considered a possible and more desireable course by a majority of working people. So, what are the enemy weaknesses that can be exploited and made more acute? What enemy strengths can be turned into weaknesses? What can be done to cause working people to lose all confidence in the myths and power of the reigning system and in fact to see it as "enemy" not "ours"? What can be done to eliminate any possibility of reformist capitulation, to bring our class struggle to it final revolutiinary conclusion and not anywhere else but victory to the workers of the world?
Yes, surely, we urgently need to be rebuilding the workers' movement, but, let's not do it for any other reason then to win our revolution d endure transition to a society of liberated humanity. As long as the possibility exists and our victory is not yet acheived, all sorts of other paths will be tempting us to go the shorter easier more peaceful gradual reformist road to a phyrric phony victory ( that will not last long, since it kept the system alive to fight us and victimize us again another day). The thing we must do will be the thing we least want to do until there is no other choice but to make revolution just in order to have the chance to survive one more day! It won't be books and speeches that convince masses...it will be the desire to survive and avoid more pain, danger, uncertainty, when they can no longer realistically expect protection or necessary services or the old "quality of life" from the system, when they fear revolution less then they fear for their fate under the current reigning state and its partners. So think about what would have to happen for such objective circumstances to develop in a Great Power like the USA.
I second this.
